Help In Choosing A School For A Private Pilot's License

From the original post...
" So it is important that your instructors coordinate your lessons. It is
valuable to
fly with more than one instructor as you progress in your training."

Note the word plural INSTRUCTORS, LESSONS and more than one instructor.

Part of the problem with instruction is that most students only hear part of
what was said, which makes for incomplete learning.



"Jose" wrote in message
. net...
| It's more correct to say that flying with another instructor (who
confuses the student) can be a problem.
|
| Flying with =an= instructor who confuses the student is a problem,
irrespective of whether it is the original instructor or a different one.
The implication I picked up was that being exposed to a different approach
is inherently confusing; it is that with which I disagree. Otherwise what
you (and others) have said applies equally to the original instructor as to
the substitute one.
|
| Jose
| --
| You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

If you read the whole thing, you'll see that I support flying with more than
one instructor, but particularly with a pre-solo student who does not have
the skill or experience to do a TO&L session. But the false expectation and
the bad habits, frustration and even failures that are likely create a
plateau or even a big back-slide. I've seen it happen, all the experienced
instructors have seen it and many students have experienced it.

At any school, the instructor need to be coordinated and if there is a Chief
Flight Instructor {approved school] they should have procedures in place
just the Henry said previously.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFII-ASMELI, A&P
BE400/BE1900-BE300
former Chief Flight Instructor
Gold Seal

"Jose" wrote in message
. net...
| Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another
| instructor who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a
| problem.
|
| I strongly disagree. When I was taking primary lessons, I found that I
often learned more when I had a sub instructor =because= the approach or the
material was different. It is good to be exposed to different ways of doing
things, and different things in a different order.
|
| Maybe that's just the way =I= am, but I doubt I'm all that unusual, and I
would not make the blanket statement that flying with another instructor who
doesn't follow the first's plan is "a problem".
|
| Jose
| --
| You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Sorry, was listening to radio and wrote Henry when I meant to say Dudley.
My bad.



"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...
| If you read the whole thing, you'll see that I support flying with more
than
| one instructor, but particularly with a pre-solo student who does not have
| the skill or experience to do a TO&L session. But the false expectation
and
| the bad habits, frustration and even failures that are likely create a
| plateau or even a big back-slide. I've seen it happen, all the
experienced
| instructors have seen it and many students have experienced it.
|
| At any school, the instructor need to be coordinated and if there is a
Chief
| Flight Instructor {approved school] they should have procedures in place
| just the Henry said previously.
|
|
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFII-ASMELI, A&P
| BE400/BE1900-BE300
| former Chief Flight Instructor
| Gold Seal
|
| "Jose" wrote in message
| . net...
|| Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another
|| instructor who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a
|| problem.
||
|| I strongly disagree. When I was taking primary lessons, I found that I
| often learned more when I had a sub instructor =because= the approach or
the
| material was different. It is good to be exposed to different ways of
doing
| things, and different things in a different order.
||
|| Maybe that's just the way =I= am, but I doubt I'm all that unusual, and I
| would not make the blanket statement that flying with another instructor
who
| doesn't follow the first's plan is "a problem".
||
|| Jose
|| --
|| You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
|| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
|
|

Jim Macklin wrote:
If you read the whole thing, you'll see that I support flying with more than
one instructor, but particularly with a pre-solo student who does not have
the skill or experience to do a TO&L session. But the false expectation and
the bad habits, frustration and even failures that are likely create a
plateau or even a big back-slide. I've seen it happen, all the experienced
instructors have seen it and many students have experienced it.

At any school, the instructor need to be coordinated and if there is a Chief
Flight Instructor {approved school] they should have procedures in place
just the Henry said previously.



It's no use Jim. I've been dealing with Jose now for years. He seems
absolutely convinced that classroom teachers are WAY ahead of the curve
when it comes to us lowly CFI's :-) I don't think the guy has EVER asked
me a question about flight instruction. He just lectures and lectures
and lectures some more.
He's been informing me on how to teach people to fly for years :-))
Sorry Jose, but you might at least go out and get the rating and fly
with a few students before telling us how to best do the job.
No flame intended really :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

It really is true, 95% [made up number by guess] of flight students who get
a rating have learned at least to the 70% level on the knowledge and the
practical test is in the 90% skill range of skill, but all rated pilots were
seen to be "safe" on the day they got their test and left the instructors
nest.

But traditional classroom instructor, if judged by the American public
schools, fails 80% of the students.



"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| If you read the whole thing, you'll see that I support flying with more
than
| one instructor, but particularly with a pre-solo student who does not
have
| the skill or experience to do a TO&L session. But the false expectation
and
| the bad habits, frustration and even failures that are likely create a
| plateau or even a big back-slide. I've seen it happen, all the
experienced
| instructors have seen it and many students have experienced it.
|
| At any school, the instructor need to be coordinated and if there is a
Chief
| Flight Instructor {approved school] they should have procedures in place
| just the Henry said previously.
|
|
|
| It's no use Jim. I've been dealing with Jose now for years. He seems
| absolutely convinced that classroom teachers are WAY ahead of the curve
| when it comes to us lowly CFI's :-) I don't think the guy has EVER asked
| me a question about flight instruction. He just lectures and lectures
| and lectures some more.
| He's been informing me on how to teach people to fly for years :-))
| Sorry Jose, but you might at least go out and get the rating and fly
| with a few students before telling us how to best do the job.
| No flame intended really :-))
|
| --
| Dudley Henriques

Jim Macklin wrote:
It really is true, 95% [made up number by guess] of flight students who get
a rating have learned at least to the 70% level on the knowledge and the
practical test is in the 90% skill range of skill, but all rated pilots were
seen to be "safe" on the day they got their test and left the instructors
nest.

But traditional classroom instructor, if judged by the American public
schools, fails 80% of the students.



"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| If you read the whole thing, you'll see that I support flying with more
than
| one instructor, but particularly with a pre-solo student who does not
have
| the skill or experience to do a TO&L session. But the false expectation
and
| the bad habits, frustration and even failures that are likely create a
| plateau or even a big back-slide. I've seen it happen, all the
experienced
| instructors have seen it and many students have experienced it.
|
| At any school, the instructor need to be coordinated and if there is a
Chief
| Flight Instructor {approved school] they should have procedures in place
| just the Henry said previously.
|
|
|
| It's no use Jim. I've been dealing with Jose now for years. He seems
| absolutely convinced that classroom teachers are WAY ahead of the curve
| when it comes to us lowly CFI's :-) I don't think the guy has EVER asked
| me a question about flight instruction. He just lectures and lectures
| and lectures some more.
| He's been informing me on how to teach people to fly for years :-))
| Sorry Jose, but you might at least go out and get the rating and fly
| with a few students before telling us how to best do the job.
| No flame intended really :-))
|
| --
| Dudley Henriques


The classroom advocates (not to mean that classroom training isn't an
asset by any means ) seem to get booged down in understanding that
flight instruction takes place in part at least in a classroom moving at
over a hundred or in many cases over two hundred miles an hour.
The differences involved in teaching in this dynamic scenario just seems
to avoid these people for some reason.
To be quite frank, I get a little tired sometimes of being "lectured" by
these teachers who have absolutely no concept of what it's like to teach
someone to do something correctly at the speed involved with a moving
airplane while at the same time keeping the student they are teaching
from killing them both in the process :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

[Jose] seems absolutely convinced that classroom teachers are WAY ahead

.... actually, no. And btw I am not (and never have been) a classroom teacher. The screen name comes from teaching C programming online some years back.

I don't think the guy has EVER asked me a question about flight instruction.

Actually I have. Several. And I've appreciated the answers.

He's been informing me on how to teach people to fly for years

My POV is as a student. I know what worked for me, though I will grant that my experience as a flying student is limited.

Sorry Jose, but you might at least go out and get the rating

It's on my to-do list. Alas, I can't do everything at once and still post to Usenet.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
[Jose] seems absolutely convinced that classroom teachers are WAY ahead

... actually, no. And btw I am not (and never have been) a classroom
teacher. The screen name comes from teaching C programming online some
years back.

I don't think the guy has EVER asked me a question about flight
instruction.

Actually I have. Several. And I've appreciated the answers.

He's been informing me on how to teach people to fly for years

My POV is as a student. I know what worked for me, though I will grant
that my experience as a flying student is limited.

Sorry Jose, but you might at least go out and get the rating

It's on my to-do list. Alas, I can't do everything at once and still
post to Usenet.

Jose

Well when and if you do, I will be glad to help you in any way I can (if
asked)
:-))

--
Dudley Henriques

On 2007-12-26 09:24:54 -0800, "Jim Macklin"
said:

I'll add one more think, the instructor/student relationship is very
personal. Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another
instructor who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a
problem. Often the INSTRUCTOR has a series of step by step lesson plans,
concentrating on mastering airwork, turns of all kinds, ground reference
maneuvers, airspeed control and is not ready for "landings" yet.
The student is happy because they are flying and working hard and learning
the basics. But if the instructor is ill and another instructor subs a
problem arises.
#2 instructor may just say to the student, "You've got 8 hours, so let's
stay in the pattern and practice take-offs and landings."

This is the thing, though. Too many instructors do nothing except what
#2 instructor does -- and so their students never learn to fly.

I would say that one of the first things you want to do is ask a
potential instructor's other students how closely the instructor
follows the syllabus. There are several possible answers:

1) "What syllabus?" An instructor without a syllabus will not teach you
to fly. Flee from an instructor who does not use one.

2) "Step by step. If the weather does not allow us to do the next
lesson, we cancel." Not as bad as the first, but it will take a long
time to finish with this instructor, especially in the Pacific
Northwest where the weather is often bad.

3) "We started out using a syllabus, but lately I am just practicing
takeoffs and landings. I have 120 landings and I still am not getting
it right." You will not get them right, either, if you fly with this
instructor. He started out with good intentions, but for some reason he
has stopped instructing. He just likes riding in the airplane with his
students.

4) "We have a syllabus, but if the weather does not work for a
particular lesson, we do something else. If he has a substitute
instructor, he follows the syllabus, too." Good instructor with good
backup. You can bet he will have you fly with a check instructor from
time to time, too, just to confirm his own observations and to make
sure you get a fresh point of view.

I do not like instructors who are abusive -- an instructor should never
use foul language and nearly all of his criticism should be positive.
It is better to say "Try keeping your airspeed at 65 knots on final"
instead of "Your landings were lousy today," but it is a lot easier for
some instructors to say the latter instead of the former.


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-12-26 09:24:54 -0800, "Jim Macklin"
said:

I'll add one more think, the instructor/student relationship is very
personal. Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another
instructor who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a
problem. Often the INSTRUCTOR has a series of step by step lesson plans,
concentrating on mastering airwork, turns of all kinds, ground reference
maneuvers, airspeed control and is not ready for "landings" yet.
The student is happy because they are flying and working hard and
learning
the basics. But if the instructor is ill and another instructor subs a
problem arises.
#2 instructor may just say to the student, "You've got 8 hours, so let's
stay in the pattern and practice take-offs and landings."

This is the thing, though. Too many instructors do nothing except what
#2 instructor does -- and so their students never learn to fly.

I would say that one of the first things you want to do is ask a
potential instructor's other students how closely the instructor follows
the syllabus. There are several possible answers:

1) "What syllabus?" An instructor without a syllabus will not teach you
to fly. Flee from an instructor who does not use one.

2) "Step by step. If the weather does not allow us to do the next
lesson, we cancel." Not as bad as the first, but it will take a long
time to finish with this instructor, especially in the Pacific Northwest
where the weather is often bad.

3) "We started out using a syllabus, but lately I am just practicing
takeoffs and landings. I have 120 landings and I still am not getting it
right." You will not get them right, either, if you fly with this
instructor. He started out with good intentions, but for some reason he
has stopped instructing. He just likes riding in the airplane with his
students.

4) "We have a syllabus, but if the weather does not work for a
particular lesson, we do something else. If he has a substitute
instructor, he follows the syllabus, too." Good instructor with good
backup. You can bet he will have you fly with a check instructor from
time to time, too, just to confirm his own observations and to make sure
you get a fresh point of view.

I do not like instructors who are abusive -- an instructor should never
use foul language and nearly all of his criticism should be positive. It
is better to say "Try keeping your airspeed at 65 knots on final"
instead of "Your landings were lousy today," but it is a lot easier for
some instructors to say the latter instead of the former.



Good instructors ALWAYS, regardless of how the lesson went, end a lesson
with a positive note of praise for a student. You NEVER abuse a student
or take the lesson into negative territoty. This doesn't mean good CFI's
shouldn't criticize or correct. It means that all critiszm and
correcting should be done wrapped up in a positive presentation.
I can't ever remember letting a student end a lesson feeling despondent
or unfulfilled. There's simply no excuse or reason for this ever happening.
ALL student instruction should be positive instruction. If the student
screws something up, any good instructor should be able to deal with it
on a positive basis and without making a student feel bad in any way.
I'd fire a flight instructor working for me in a heartbeat for
approaching flight instruction in any other way than what CJ and I have
both commented on here.

--
Dudley Henriques