flaps again

On Jan 1, 1:23 am, Denny wrote:
On Dec 30, 9:38 pm, Al wrote:



I love the manual flaps in my Cessna 172E

Al
SFF
Spokane, WA

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittingly landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ya know, flaps are not the only way to land... Once you have mastered
the basics and gotten the rating, you need to keep expanding your zone
of comfort...
Try some half flap landings, followed by quarter flap landings,
followed by no flap landings... Cross wind landings... And on a light
wind day emphasis, LIGHT do a downwind landing and a downwind
takeoff...
The aircraft will feel different scary different for some and the
sight picture out the windshield will be different... All of these
will be learning experiences that will increase your zone of comfort
in handling the plane in the future...
The major difference between Joe Pilot you and me and some hotshot
airshow or military pilot is that they have worked their zone of
comfort up to having the aircraft on the very edge of 'out of
control...
Notice I am not advocating doing dangerous things, but simply,
stepwise, to increase your zone of comfort inside of the aircrafts
performance envelope...

denny

Don't you have to demonstrate flapless, short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Cheers

"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless, short
field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Not flapless.

Vaughn

Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless, short
field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Not flapless.


I had to.

B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Not flapless.


I had to.


I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area—ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area—ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)

In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Not flapless.

I had to.

I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area?ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area?ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?
Not flapless.
I had to.
I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area?ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area?ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?


Yeah it's there and I've marked it below. But that doesn't mean you have
to land with the gear up if the guy giving you the test tells you to.

X. AREA OF OPERATION: EMERGENCY OPERATIONS
SNIP
2. Analyzes the situation and takes appropriate action for simulated
emergencies appropriate to the airplane provided for the practical
test for at least three (3) of the following—
a. partial or complete power loss.
b. engine roughness or overheat.
c. carburetor or induction icing.
d. loss of oil pressure.
e. fuel starvation.
f. electrical malfunction.
g. vacuum/pressure, and associated flight instruments malfunction.
h. pitot/static.
i. landing gear or flap malfunction.
j. inoperative trim.
k. inadvertent door or window opening.
l. structural icing.
m. smoke/fire/engine compartment fire.
n. any other emergency appropriate to the airplane.
3. Follows the appropriate checklist or procedure.

In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?
Not flapless.
I had to.
I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area?ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area?ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

Yeah it's there and I've marked it below. But that doesn't mean you have
to land with the gear up if the guy giving you the test tells you to.

Right, but part of the expectation of the test is to follow it through as
far as you can safely do so. When he pulls the power on you, you're not
expected to *actually* land in some guy's field, but at the same time you
don't smack his hand away from the throttle and keep going. I would expect
that a simulated landing gear failure would consist of going through
whatever checks are appropriate for that situation and making sure you
handle that end of things in a reasonable manner. Since stuck flaps can be
taken all the way to completion safely, there's no reason to stop early.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps
failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a
PA-28) and refuse to move it :-)

In rec.aviation.student Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps
failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a
PA-28) and refuse to move it :-)

Ooh, you're mean.

Seriously though, it seems to me that this is a better approach than
simply announcing the failure. It's much more realistic and teaches the
student to be adaptable when something doesn't work the way it should,
instead of just changing the tune to follow the instructor.

The big emergency us glider types just love to practice is low-altitude
tow rope breaks. Instructors have you practice those by pulling the
release knob on you with no advance warning. Makes a loud bang with the
treetops awfully close. First time scared and surprised me so much I
literally froze on the controls and probably would have died if I had been
alone. Second time was a piece of cake. If you don't surprise your
students in training then their first surprise is going to be a *real*
emergency, and that's no good, so I'm all for your style of doing things.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps
failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a
PA-28) and refuse to move it :-)

That's what the proverbial D-cell flash light is for (preferably a
mag-lite).