flaps again

On Jan 1, 2:45 am, "Maxwell" wrote:
"Kobra" wrote in message

...



I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild
distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each
of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided.

You shouldn't, it really just indicates both of you have a problem.
Transitioning from 0 to 30/40 degrees flaps changes the pitch and trim
handling on a 150, 152, 172, 177, 182 so much - if you can't sense the
difference, you really need to spend a LOT more time with the airplane.

Too right! I can't believe he could not feel the difference in the
plane as flaps extend. You can also feel vibration and hear the motor
in all the SE Cessnas I've flown. Is this another simmer? If not I
agree he really needs some quality training.

Cheers

Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless, short
field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Not flapless.


I had to.

"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless, short
field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Not flapless.

Vaughn

B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Not flapless.


I had to.


I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area—ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area—ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)

In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Not flapless.

I had to.

I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area?ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area?ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?
Not flapless.
I had to.
I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area?ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area?ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?


Yeah it's there and I've marked it below. But that doesn't mean you have
to land with the gear up if the guy giving you the test tells you to.

X. AREA OF OPERATION: EMERGENCY OPERATIONS
SNIP
2. Analyzes the situation and takes appropriate action for simulated
emergencies appropriate to the airplane provided for the practical
test for at least three (3) of the following—
a. partial or complete power loss.
b. engine roughness or overheat.
c. carburetor or induction icing.
d. loss of oil pressure.
e. fuel starvation.
f. electrical malfunction.
g. vacuum/pressure, and associated flight instruments malfunction.
h. pitot/static.
i. landing gear or flap malfunction.
j. inoperative trim.
k. inadvertent door or window opening.
l. structural icing.
m. smoke/fire/engine compartment fire.
n. any other emergency appropriate to the airplane.
3. Follows the appropriate checklist or procedure.

snip

I as well wonder how this would not be noticed, but my experience is
limited to one model Cessna.

* * * * * *I've flown the 150, 172, 180, 182, 185 and 206 and all
except the 180 and 185 do the same thing. The stab is in the downwash
off the flaps and the nose will rise when flaps are applied. The
snip

It have been a few years since I flew a 177 and it wasn't an RG.
However as I recall the flaps on the 177 are much smaller than most of
the other Cessnas.
They are more simlar to the flaps on the Cherokee.

I don't recall how much pitch change they induced on the 177 but
if there was a Cessna that the flaps didn't change the pitch much it
probably would be the 177.
I am sure there are a few others like possibly the C-140, C-188, etc.

Brian
CFIG/ASEL

In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps
failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a
PA-28) and refuse to move it :-)

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

He announced the flap failure while asking for the ground control
frequency on 2 mile final to New Haven.

I told him I was too busy to pull out the AF/D, and would look up the
correct frequency after landing. This was the correct answer.

At 50 ft. AGL on the no flap emergency landing, he told me to go
around, as the runway had debris on it. The go-around went well.
During the approach, I had to describe the differences in between a
no-flap landing and a normal landing. (hint: Green and White arcs,
higher turning stall speeds) I also had to answer questions on if I
would land on specific local runways with a flap failure, and why my
landing roll would be longer.

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittingly landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. They I remembered
out fast I came over the fence and controlling the airspeed was more
difficult then ever before. I took a lot of heat from other pilots that
basicly said, "How in the world could any pilot worth a darn EVER not
realize that their flaps didn't come out! THAT would NEVER happen to ME!!"

I thought I would relate a story that happened to my plane partner and I the
other day. My partner hadn't flown in a while and we went out to do some
maneuvers and some landings to get him current and proficient again.
Everything went fine until our last landing.

Throughout this last pattern I noticed that we were always fast on every
leg. I admonished him to slow down and get down. He was some what
distracted by a helicopter hovering just off the ground and off to the left
side of the final approach course. I notice that he had 30 degrees of flaps
in and he started to drift the IAS out of the white arc. I again sounded
off that his AS was way off and to fix it.

Then it hit me...how in the world could he have flaps 30 with 16 or 17
inches of MP at our decent rate and be out of the white arc. That is not
possible. I looked over my right shoulder and saw the reason...the flaps
were fully retracted.

He did not notice and was attempting to fix the problem by pulling the power
and trimming the nose up. (unwittingly setting himself up for a no flap
landing as I did in VA). We were on short final and I hesitated to say
anything as not to distract him at this critical time, but reflexively my
mouth just blurted out, "Dude...I have some really bad news for
you...you've got no flaps at all!" At first he wanted to go around, but the
AS wasn't too bad and I said, "No...just keep this attitude and come in
flat." That is what he did and we had no problems.

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided. He would have
landed fast and long, braked hard and wondered why he had so much difficulty
slowing down. He would not have realized what happened until and unless he
did the next pre-flight and set the flaps to full for inspection.

This was a new motor bought from Cessna. Turns out that one of the brushes
was hanging up in it's housing and not making contact with the commutator.
He widened the housing and that was the end of that problem.

Kobra
C177RG

PS: and now Multi-engine, Multi-engine instrument, Multi-engine commercial
rated!! whoa whooh!! Regionals...here I come.



As my good ole' buddy Chris Patterakis (ex-Thunderbird lead and general
good guy) used to say, "We don't fly in a one cue world".
This simple statement should be a large sign stapled on the door of
every pilot's bedroom so they read it every day until it became a living
part of their flying mindset.
I honestly can't conceive of a situation in a light GA aircraft where a
pilot could attempt lowering the flaps and not know immediately if they
were in the equation. The cues available are just too many to ignore.
You have the obvious visual check, and if that isn't available, the
changes and/or lack of same in the aircraft's performance should become
immediately apparent to a "tuned in" pilot.

On the other hand, a flaps up landing should be part and parcel of every
pilot's training curriculum and should be a non event should the need
arise to make one.

The bottom line on this is that there should have been instant
recognition of the situation using any and all available cues and the
situation assessed and acted on by a deliberate action either to land
the airplane flaps up with all the expected behavior associated with
that decision, or, if not enough time to set up or enough romm to do
that, a go around should have been initiated and the problem
investigated out of the pattern.
Either way, this situation should have been handled in such a way that
at no time during the approach was the airplane flying the pilot and not
the other way around :-)


--
Dudley Henriques