Super Regionals

On Dec 31, 12:27�pm, Tuno wrote:
Ah, one of my fav topix.

I lean with Bullwinkle on this one. I only agree with the Super
Regional to a certain degree from an organizer's point of view; were I
the organizer, I would want some leeway in the type of contest I was
going to have.

But it's an SSA sanctioned *regional* contest. That means something.
Getting sanctioning means you have to satisfy someone else's
requirements first, then do your own thing. The medals awarded at the
end will still say "Region 9", not "Super Region 9".

Maybe they should sanction/approve a "Super" regional only after a non-
Super regional has already been scheduled in the same region. Even if
I had a single-digit national pilot ranking, it should not be an
automatic ticket to fly in every contest I like.

~ted/2NO

JJ, trust me on this. You can put a group together, call Dave at
Parowan Air, and book your group over whatever period of days are
available. You can even do it a year in advance to get the best time.
He gives no preference to the contest folks. The contest folks just
fill all the ramp spots plus some, so theirs no more room for a week
or so. Your group can fly as much as they want, have nightly BBQ's
and post your flights to the OLC for daily winners, You don't need a
contest to go to Parowan. Ya, you can even play your own music to
dance too.
The folks who got into the 07 Parowan regionals, like the big guns
such as KS and Wills/Newfield, Itner, and others, did so under our
present rules. They choose what class they wanted to fly in. KS could
of brought his 27, and I am sure the others could of gotten other
rides. BUT they choose their toys for their reasons, and Sports Class
was their choice. The winner of Sports Class in 07, was a quiet guy,
came from within region, who flys with a big grinn, and whipped them
all. They also were asked to help us set the place up for the racers,
hold morning racing camps and be daily advisors for "lite". Because of
them, I will be forever grateful. Not one of them ever complained, but
I did get some strange looks ever so often.
Gunter and Wolfgang ( hes ok now, but he became very ill) showed
up, folks from Warner Springs helped out big time, as many did and we
had our "girls for Nick". Also, within the region, I did get an
angel, her name is " Mickie", and she was the one who really came
forward and put in long hours for all of you. Ever racer that I
remember asked if they could be of some help, all I had to do was ask.
Folks make the place, and they are the ones who make it safe. That's
a fact. Period.
What I am getting at, JJ, is their really an answer for Parowan.
Well, maybe, just maybe, as history has given us, are that the
past Regionals and Sports Class Nationals, never filled up. Yep, never
filled up. Maybe the answer is an earlier "full no refund entry fee"
would be a better idea, as it would cause more to really "THINK" about
it and giving more notice to those on the waiting list to move up.
Maybe Parowan or Perry, or any other "oversubscribed contest" such as
New Castle, the full entry fee should be required to be paid 60 days
in advance and "no refunds except emergences unless deemed OK by the
Contest manager" should be put into place, as a better idea.
Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe, # 711 retired CM, born
again racer.

I am sure JJ is familiar with this option #711, since he was in the
group that we organized and brought our own tow planes when we first
opened Parowan to big time soaring in the early 90's

Retired Racer NK

Let me look at this another way... Pareto's law says that 80% of your
entrants are cannon fodder. The top pilots will always win, the 80 % guys
will always lose. The BIG BUT in this is the unrecognised fact that the
race is built on the backs of, and funded by the guys with no chance to win.
Excluding these people is not the way to grow the sport. The guys on top
need to recognise this, and while I respectfully disagree with both groups
because they are drawing lines in the sand in different places, NOBODY has
address the real fact. This race looks to be a priveledge instead of a
right........... So why can't you have "qualifying" for Parawon. Seeded
pilots have a process to do this at a national level. Region 9 pilots might
want to consider a method to seed themselves so the guys putting in the time
to "earn" the entry get in. As magnanimus as it sounds, the race is open to
everybody, and maybe THAT in itself is the issue. There are some, like ME,
a very low time beginner that could write the check to enter this thing, and
probably have a great time, that are the wrong guys to be there. Gently
filtering them out is critical to growing the event. Contests of this
caliber are for competent cross country guys, not guys like me who just
haven't got the experience........ Regional pilots need to be seeded and
the organisers just need to ask how many of the local guys get slotted
before accepting out of region contestants. It IS there contest after
all...... I see the issue being Region 9's lack of a seeding process, and
the non-9 pilots hard feelings at being excluded by the numbers. Both can
be worked on..................... What does a guy like me do? I'm calling
Karl to set up a "talking ballast" day.....
Enjoy the new year.
Scott.

XYZ wrote:
Let me look at this another way... Pareto's law says that 80% of your
entrants are cannon fodder. The top pilots will always win, the 80 % guys
will always lose. The BIG BUT in this is the unrecognised fact that the
race is built on the backs of, and funded by the guys with no chance to win.
Excluding these people is not the way to grow the sport. The guys on top
need to recognise this, and while I respectfully disagree with both groups
because they are drawing lines in the sand in different places, NOBODY has
address the real fact. This race looks to be a priveledge instead of a
right........... So why can't you have "qualifying" for Parawon. Seeded
pilots have a process to do this at a national level. Region 9 pilots might
want to consider a method to seed themselves so the guys putting in the time
to "earn" the entry get in. As magnanimus as it sounds, the race is open to
everybody, and maybe THAT in itself is the issue. There are some, like ME,
a very low time beginner that could write the check to enter this thing, and
probably have a great time, that are the wrong guys to be there. Gently
filtering them out is critical to growing the event. Contests of this
caliber are for competent cross country guys, not guys like me who just
haven't got the experience........ Regional pilots need to be seeded and
the organisers just need to ask how many of the local guys get slotted
before accepting out of region contestants. It IS there contest after
all...... I see the issue being Region 9's lack of a seeding process, and
the non-9 pilots hard feelings at being excluded by the numbers. Both can
be worked on..................... What does a guy like me do? I'm calling
Karl to set up a "talking ballast" day.....
Enjoy the new year.
Scott.


Scott,
There is a seeding process in place. The national pilot ranking system
is used. Previously, the entrants are accepted as
1. In region pilots by seeding order
1a - some spots are reserved for reverse seeding order to let in some
new guys
2. Any spots left for out of region pilots by seeding order.
Ties broken by date of entry. This is slightly oversimplified, but its
all detailed in the rules.

The change is to reserve somewhere for 0-50% of the slots for in region
pilots, still by seeding order. The rest from anywhere, again by seeding
order.

The issue the rules writers are dealing with is there are enough region
9 pilots entering that very few, if any spots have been left for out of
region pilots. And they keep hearing the stories of how wonderful it is
and want to play, too. Well, they are really trying to solve the generic
problem with popular regional contests, not just Parowan and Region 9.
It just has a bigger effect on the excluded Region 9 pilots than it
might on pilots in the east half of the country where there are many
more "nearby" regional contests to choose from. Distances between
soaring sites and competition pilot population density is much lower out
here.

The oversubscribed regional is a fairly recent problem. The old rules
have been in place for a long time, but the success of some sites and
organizers in attracting entries have brought the rules into question.
Its a nice problem to have, too many glider pilots, unfortunately its
very localized.

-Dave Leonard

On Jan 1, 11:55 am, ZL wrote:
XYZ wrote:
Let me look at this another way... Pareto's law says that 80% of your
entrants are cannon fodder. The top pilots will always win, the 80 % guys
will always lose. The BIG BUT in this is the unrecognised fact that the
race is built on the backs of, and funded by the guys with no chance to win.
Excluding these people is not the way to grow the sport. The guys on top
need to recognise this, and while I respectfully disagree with both groups
because they are drawing lines in the sand in different places, NOBODY has
address the real fact. This race looks to be a priveledge instead of a
right........... So why can't you have "qualifying" for Parawon. Seeded
pilots have a process to do this at a national level. Region 9 pilots might
want to consider a method to seed themselves so the guys putting in the time
to "earn" the entry get in. As magnanimus as it sounds, the race is open to
everybody, and maybe THAT in itself is the issue. There are some, like ME,
a very low time beginner that could write the check to enter this thing, and
probably have a great time, that are the wrong guys to be there. Gently
filtering them out is critical to growing the event. Contests of this
caliber are for competent cross country guys, not guys like me who just
haven't got the experience........ Regional pilots need to be seeded and
the organisers just need to ask how many of the local guys get slotted
before accepting out of region contestants. It IS there contest after
all...... I see the issue being Region 9's lack of a seeding process, and
the non-9 pilots hard feelings at being excluded by the numbers. Both can
be worked on..................... What does a guy like me do? I'm calling
Karl to set up a "talking ballast" day.....
Enjoy the new year.
Scott.

Scott,
There is a seeding process in place. The national pilot ranking system
is used. Previously, the entrants are accepted as
1. In region pilots by seeding order
1a - some spots are reserved for reverse seeding order to let in some
new guys
2. Any spots left for out of region pilots by seeding order.
Ties broken by date of entry. This is slightly oversimplified, but its
all detailed in the rules.

The change is to reserve somewhere for 0-50% of the slots for in region
pilots, still by seeding order. The rest from anywhere, again by seeding
order.

The issue the rules writers are dealing with is there are enough region
9 pilots entering that very few, if any spots have been left for out of
region pilots. And they keep hearing the stories of how wonderful it is
and want to play, too. Well, they are really trying to solve the generic
problem with popular regional contests, not just Parowan and Region 9.
It just has a bigger effect on the excluded Region 9 pilots than it
might on pilots in the east half of the country where there are many
more "nearby" regional contests to choose from. Distances between
soaring sites and competition pilot population density is much lower out
here.

The oversubscribed regional is a fairly recent problem. The old rules
have been in place for a long time, but the success of some sites and
organizers in attracting entries have brought the rules into question.
Its a nice problem to have, too many glider pilots, unfortunately its
very localized.

-Dave Leonard

Being a Region 9 pilot I don't think there should be a change to the
rules. I think this is not fair to the pilots in the region that is
declared a super regional. A regional is a place for both good pilots
to get better and to let new pilots learn. Every regional has a few
national ranked pilots, we don't need to put in place a rule that
excludes those in the region from being able to compete in their own
regional.

Region 9 covers 5 large states with at least five major metropolitan
areas spread nearly 500 miles apart. I live in Utah and it is still
300 miles for me to go to Parowan. That would have been like me going
to Cal City (Region 12) when I lived in Northern California (Region
11). We are starting to get more interest in racing within the region
and are building relationships within the region and to put any new
rules in place to diminish this would hurt soaring in our region.

Parowan is not a great racing site, but the limitations on numbers and
the proximity to the center of the region as well as on a direct
highway from Southern California has helped to make it very popular
and over subscribed. Cedar City would be a better airport from a
safety standpoint. I could not imagine a south takeoff with water.
Not to mention the fun of coming home to a 90 degree cross-wind and
thunderstorms. The better pilots come because it is going to be the
highest level of competition short of a Nationals in the western
states. It is similar to Uvalde in the early 90's or Minden in the
80's. Uvalde could handle more ships and allow water that is not
possible at Parowan right now.

How do we improve the process?

1. Impose an earlier date for a non-refundable registration. This
will open up the registration process to those on the list.

2. Encourage other regionals in the area. Why are Minden or Cal
City not strong regionals anymore? The soaring at Parowan is good,
but other sites such as Minden NV, Air Sailing NV, Ely NV, Logan UT,
Pinedale WY, Steamboat Springs, CO can be just as good or better with
the capability to handle ships with water and most with multiple
runways for increased safety.

3. Reevaluate the nationals process. Only the very top pilots are
willing to travel from coast to coast to compete. The time and cost
of fuel to trailer from coast to coast is getting harder to justify.
We are a large country, maybe it is time to hold multiple contests on
each side of the country with a single nationals every other year or
so. Have higher pilot ranking values for these contests similar to a
nationals. We also need to look at class creep. We have gone from
one contest 45 years ago to I would guess 8 classes (1-26, World,
Sports, Club, Std, 15M, 18M, Open). How many do we really need? Most
top pilots today need access to at least two gliders (Std, 15M/18M).
Our system is not producing pilots that are competitive at the world
level because we have too few opportunities to really fly with the top
pilots in one class often enough.

Like 9B I came back to racing after a 10 year break and am just
starting to get a little faster (before Parowan in 2004 the last
contest I flew I wasn't allowed to use GPS in Uvalde in about 95). I
would love to fly two or three competitive contests in a year without
having to drive 3000 miles for several of them.

Let's leave the rules alone and give those within the region the
priority to race near home.

Tim (TT)

Super regionals. To apply for a sanctioning approval don't you have to
do that on the initial registration form? Just as I have to say its
Region 12 at Warner Springs in 2008, not Region 12 or Region
11....whichever i choose as the time goes by? I also have to list
waivers that I may need: extra $money, combined standard/15meter,
etc...... I don't think its a maybe we will maybe we won't.

The UK have the OverSeas Nationals....it doesn't replace any other
contest. The 'super regionals' are not a replacement of any other
contest. Another venue for an organizer to do.....heck maybe a few
people will show. Maybe some city will get a little extra
money.....the geezer glide sure is popular. There was no intent for
Parowan to become 'the' super regional site....to my limited knowledge
they sanction form was for Region 9.

a national uses higher ranked pilots...sorta...but it is only 1 class.
But like geezer Glide and the UK Overseas nationals....they are
handicapped. a Super regional could have multiple classes....AND it
doesn't have to rotate like a US National.

On Jan 2, 9:29�pm, g l i d e r s t u d wrote:
Super regionals. To apply for a sanctioning approval don't you have to
do that on the initial registration form? Just as I have to say its
Region 12 at Warner Springs in 2008, not Region 12 or Region
11....whichever i choose as the time goes by? I also have to list
waivers that I may need: extra $money, combined standard/15meter,
etc...... I don't think its a maybe we will maybe we won't.

The UK have the OverSeas Nationals....it doesn't replace any other
contest. The 'super regionals' are not a replacement of any other
contest. Another venue for an organizer to do.....heck maybe a few
people will show. Maybe some city will get a little extra
money.....the geezer glide sure is popular. There was no intent for
Parowan to become 'the' super regional site....to my limited knowledge
they sanction form was for Region 9.

a national uses higher ranked pilots...sorta...but it is only 1 class.
But like geezer Glide and the UK Overseas nationals....they are
handicapped. a Super regional could have multiple classes....AND it
doesn't have to rotate like a US National.

You young whipper snapper, its called "The Senior Nationals", we are
in the USA, not the UK, and fess up, some out of regional top guns, of
which, some chambers are empty, just don't like waiting in
line..........wooohoooooooooooo................KaC hing..........

Tom, et al;

GREAT responses and thoughtful in reference to the "super regional".
Tom taught me a LOT about the entries process for a regional contest.
I agree, the site is GREAT, and it wouldn't be so great without some
of those "out of region" guys. The winner in the sports class WAS a
region 9 pilot. I agree the answer to the Parowan waiting list is a
full payment BEFORE the cut-off date, rather than the "super regional"
concept. Because last year, I was on the phone DAILY with Tom, about
people that didn't respond to the request for final details required
to register, and had to be dropped off the list at the last minute.
Of course, you have an occasional emergency (breaking your plane the
week before the contest)....but when you have a waiting list longer
than the number of competitng pilots, you have to do
SOMETHING...especially when some pilots were registered for the
Parowan contest, and then decided to fly elsewhere, and not let the
organizer's know until 3 days before the contest!
BLECH.....SPIT....PITOUEE....

I really admire this thread, because the responses have all been well
thought out. Like the rest of you, we need to see how it goes. But I
wanted everyone to know...that because of the "fear" that local guys
wouldn't get into Parowan 2008, I have had over the half of the
contest ALREADY registered, and everyone single one of the 25
registrations have been from Region 9 pilots! Ok, I have ONE out of
region, but he used to be in-region. So far, the super-regional
hasn't come into play. We will just have to wait and see! To tell
you the truth, I don't want to see a contest where I don't have pilots
like KS and P7 and JJ flying! They share knowledge, and mentor new
pilots, and teach all of us the BEST part of soaring competition.
Micki Minner