Parowan, Thinking Outside the Box - An Opportunity Knocks!

On Jan 1, 1:12*pm, Rick Culbertson wrote:
Parowan, thinking outside the box - An opportunity knocks!

Is it just me?

With the obvious decline of soaring participants in our sport
shouldn't we really consider this a "good problem" to have, let me see
if I have this right:

"Way more Pilots want to race, not just fly but race with their fellow
pilots at a contest site than it can reasonably hold in one contest,
not only within the Region but Nation wide!"

Is this oversubscribed issue really a problem or an opportunity? I
certainly wish the SSA and all Clubs had the same problem with
students, tow pilots, instructors, club members and club ships, hell
we would all gleefully tackle that problem with creative all-inclusive
solutions, wouldn't we? Please don't tell me the best solution we can
come up with is to send eager seasoned & eager up and coming pilots
packing, look at the buzz this opportunity has generated, we can do
better.

Don't fool around with the Regional system, it seems to me to be
working exactly as intended and people are having a blast.

The simple answer as I see it is to schedule an additional contest at
the site, in this case Parowan but not a pseudo regional. I'm very
intrigued with the Super Regional concept, but not the name or its
current format. The concept as I understand it is where multiple
classes; Standard, 15m, 18m and Sports containing high caliber pilots
coming from all over the country to compete / race at the same Premier
site and at the same time!

Base the entry strictly on current pilot ranking, set a limit of 13
pilots in each class totaling 52, a reasonable quantity for Parowan.
This would be one impressive contest to fly in and to observe, pitting
the best against the best at arguably the USAs Premier contest site. I
see endless possibilities with this concept, not the least of which is
public exposure and potential for our sports growth! *Call it the
"Classic" or "Western Nationals" or "Mini Nationals" or whatever but
hey if I can't fly in it I'll certainly be watching it you can count
on that.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration.

Happy New Year,

Rick Culbertson - 21

How about this(the organizers may choke!)
Have 2 contests one after the other.
Region 9 Sports with emphasis on newbies first and whoever else wants
to come second.
Include in this a Rookie School for the new guys.
6 Day contest Sunday to Friday
Region 9 Super Regional
FAI classes - only have a Sports Class if FAI won't fill.
6 days Sunday to Friday
You can't enter both unless they don't fill.
2 50 glider contests provide 100 entry slots- should be no whining
about
getting in.
Try to get a couple entrants from each contest to help the other with
organization
and grunt work.
The benefit of this is that much of the infrastructure comes and gets
better utilized.
You just can't wear out one or 2 people doing this.
Karl and Iris did this a few years ago and it was a huge success. BUT
you gotta spread
the work out.
UH

wrote:

How about this(the organizers may choke!)
Have 2 contests one after the other.
Region 9 Sports with emphasis on newbies first and whoever else wants
to come second.
Include in this a Rookie School for the new guys.
6 Day contest Sunday to Friday
Region 9 Super Regional
FAI classes - only have a Sports Class if FAI won't fill.
6 days Sunday to Friday
You can't enter both unless they don't fill.
2 50 glider contests provide 100 entry slots- should be no whining
about
getting in.
Try to get a couple entrants from each contest to help the other with
organization
and grunt work.
The benefit of this is that much of the infrastructure comes and gets
better utilized.
You just can't wear out one or 2 people doing this.
Karl and Iris did this a few years ago and it was a huge success. BUT
you gotta spread
the work out.
UH

Clearly the best approach for the short term. But it does ruin a
perfectly good RAS winter rantathon.

First, with apoligies to our many international RAS friends whom many
must be thinking "boy you can sure tell when it's winter in the
states" ;-)

UH,

I, as I'm sure other Region 9 pilots do appreciate your and others
creative responses, as ZL notes, perhaps "the best approach for the
short term".

I see from the SSA contest page this two contest concept of Sports /
FAI occurred at Region 2 in 2002. I wonder if you or KS would be so
kind as to expand on this idea, specifically with the benefit of hind-
sight. I, as I'm sure others would like to hear the positive and
negitives as experienced by the organizers and pilot attendees of such
a split contest venue. Additionally, did this idea have the desired
effect in 2002, did anything change in R-2 from 2002 to 2003 due to
this concept, in short, why has this concept not been repeated since
2002?

Just a quick comment to the troupes, in my fairly short six year
sailplane racing experience I've been fortunate to attend regional
contest that contained contest numbers like, KS, A8, DJ, JJ, P7 just
to name a few of the many. Only one of these names comes from Region
9, and the experience for me as a "newbie racer" was and is richer for
it.

Respectfully,

21

On Jan 2, 4:27*pm, Rick Culbertson wrote:
First, with apoligies to our many international RAS friends whom many
must be thinking "boy you can sure tell when it's winter in the
states" ;-)

UH,

I, as I'm sure other Region 9 pilots do appreciate your and others
creative responses, as ZL notes, perhaps "the best approach for the
short term".

I see from the SSA contest page this two contest concept of Sports /
FAI occurred at Region 2 in 2002. I wonder if you or KS would be so
kind as to expand on this idea, specifically with the benefit of hind-
sight. I, as I'm sure others would like to hear the positive and
negitives as experienced by the organizers and pilot attendees of such
a split contest venue. Additionally, did this idea have the desired
effect in 2002, did anything change in R-2 from 2002 to 2003 due to
this concept, in short, why has this concept not been repeated since
2002?

Just a quick comment to the troupes, in my fairly short six year
sailplane racing experience I've been fortunate to attend regional
contest that contained contest numbers like, KS, A8, DJ, JJ, P7 just
to name a few of the many. Only one of these names comes from Region
9, and the experience for me as a "newbie racer" was and is richer for
it.

Respectfully,

21

The main reason this has not been repeated in R2 is that is a lot
of work and adds a big time committment on the part of the organizers.
This is why I mentioned you need double crew for many important slots.
I see this as critical.
Maybe one overall manager but with 2 people for day to day stuff and 2
retreive
crew leaders. Also 2 CD's is best. 2 weeks of task calling is too
much. This is a good
way for some new volunteers to get mentored also. Watch week 1 and do
week 2.
As to the benefit. R2 sports that year was 100% reverse seeded to get
all the new
folks in and we ran an active Rookie School every day. My recollection
is that
there were close to 25 new folks and all had a good time. 5 did
diamond distance
one day. Many of these pilots have continued to race. i'd love to see
this again.
Another benefit in some cases like Parowan is that ferrying costs of
tugs get spead out
over more tows which can really help finances.
Another negative is the crowding at the end of wk 1 with guys wanting
to come
a little early for contest #2.
In all., I think the negatives can be managed by the right folks so
that you can provide
not only great racing but a terrific learning experience for new
pilots. Making the Sports contest a true
sports class with lower pressure and lots of mentoring is one of the
best ways I can think
of to grow racing.
UH

On Jan 2, 3:07�pm, wrote:
On Jan 2, 4:27�pm, Rick Culbertson wrote:





First, with apoligies to our many international RAS friends whom many
must be thinking "boy you can sure tell when it's winter in the
states" ;-)

UH,

I, as I'm sure other Region 9 pilots do appreciate your and others
creative responses, as ZL notes, perhaps "the best approach for the
short term".

I see from the SSA contest page this two contest concept of Sports /
FAI occurred at Region 2 in 2002. I wonder if you or KS would be so
kind as to expand on this idea, specifically with the benefit of hind-
sight. I, as I'm sure others would like to hear the positive and
negitives as experienced by the organizers and pilot attendees of such
a split contest venue. Additionally, did this idea have the desired
effect in 2002, did anything change in R-2 from 2002 to 2003 due to
this concept, in short, why has this concept not been repeated since
2002?

Just a quick comment to the troupes, in my fairly short six year
sailplane racing experience I've been fortunate to attend regional
contest that contained contest numbers like, KS, A8, DJ, JJ, P7 just
to name a few of the many. Only one of these names comes from Region
9, and the experience for me as a "newbie racer" was and is richer for
it.

Respectfully,

21

The main reason this has not been repeated in R2 is that is a lot
of work and adds a big time committment on the part of the organizers.
This is why I mentioned you need double crew for many important slots.
I see this as critical.
Maybe one overall manager but with 2 people for day to day stuff and 2
retreive
crew leaders. Also 2 CD's is best. 2 weeks of task calling is too
much. This is a good
way for some new volunteers to get mentored also. Watch week 1 and do
week 2.
As to the benefit. R2 sports that year was 100% reverse seeded to get
all the new
folks in and we ran an active Rookie School every day. My recollection
is that
there were close to 25 new folks and all had a good time. 5 did
diamond distance
one day. Many of these pilots have continued to race. i'd love to see
this again.
Another benefit in some cases like Parowan is that ferrying costs of
tugs get spead out
over more tows which can really help finances.
Another negative is the crowding at the end of wk 1 with guys wanting
to come
a little early for contest #2.
In all., I think the negatives can be managed by the right folks so
that you can provide
not only great racing but a terrific learning experience for new
pilots. Making the Sports contest a true
sports class with lower pressure and lots of mentoring is one of the
best ways I can think
of to grow racing.
UH- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Last year, 2007, Region 9 had 2 regionals. Region 9 Parowan, and
Region 9 in Hobbs that tagged along with the Standard Class Nationals.
You can check the turnout for Hobbs on the SSA webpage. I don't see a
turn out problem for Parowan. Sure, the list was long, but drop off
not only happened in 07, but in 04 and 05. Many groups have come and
gone to Parowan over the years, alot of these folks are not geared to
contests, they do call ahead and some groups book a year in advance.
The soaring season window is short at Parowan. Booking any dates their
is like rolling the dice, just ask the 1-26 crowd. The 1-26ers even
had a National their, along with flyin's.
With fuel costs going up, I really see only folks staying home
closer to their gliderport and posting on the OLC. Hank, for you, you
are looking at a 5,000 mile drive, and a total cost well over $2500
for a Regional event. Auto gas will be $4 or so this summer alone.
Look at the Seniors, only a hand full are coming from west of the
Mississippi. Perry fills up, as Chester did, because its the first
Spring time contest. Everyone, everywhere wants out of the house. At
this time last year we had over 80 on the list for Parowan. Mickie
sent me an email last night, its 30 now. OFF topic question, Hank, is
why are their no regionals for 08 listed on the SSA website?
I now am sure that a handful of out of region folks just want to
make sure they can get into the contest at Parowan. These few folks
needn't worry. Maybe Hank, you can tell us how many of your rules
committee guys are from Region 9? It seems ok for you to push the
Region 9 guys and girls out of their regional contest and make them
drive to another out of region contest, at their expense, when their
own regionals do not even come close to filling up. Region 11 Minden
had a total of 12 folks last year, Ely has tried several regionals,
and they were far from full.
Maybe its time, to rethink, Hank, that alot of folks don't go to
contests and they don't want contests from keeping them from great
soaring sites. The seeding list is shrinking, but the OLC has seen a
great rise. Maybe you rules committee guys can come up, in advance,
with an idea to somehow use the OLC flyers points, along with regional
and national performances. and apply them into a National Seeding list
for all Regional entry's, National entry's and US Team positions for
the World Soaring Championships and the Grand Prix of racing.
Kool.........711. Now, Rick, thats outta the box
thinking.............

* * *Last year, 2007, Region 9 had 2 regionals. Region 9 Parowan, and
Region 9 in Hobbs that tagged along with the Standard Class Nationals.
You can check the turnout for Hobbs on the SSA webpage. I don't see a
turn out problem for Parowan. Sure, the list was long, but drop off
not only happened in 07, but in 04 and 05. Many groups have come and
gone to Parowan over the years, alot of these folks are not geared to
contests, they do call ahead and some groups book a year in advance.
The soaring season window is short at Parowan. Booking any dates their
is like rolling the dice, just ask the 1-26 crowd. The 1-26ers even
had a National their, along with flyin's.
* * *With fuel costs going up, I really see only folks staying home
closer to their gliderport and posting on the OLC. Hank, for you, you
are looking at a 5,000 mile drive, and a total cost well over $2500
for a Regional event. Auto gas will be $4 or so this summer alone.
Look at the Seniors, only a hand full are coming from west of the
Mississippi. Perry fills up, as Chester did, because its the first
Spring time contest. Everyone, everywhere wants out of the house. At
this time last year we had over 80 on the list for Parowan. Mickie
sent me an email last night, its 30 now. OFF topic question, Hank, is
why are their no regionals for 08 listed on the SSA website?
* * * I now am sure that a handful of out of region folks just want to
make sure they can get into the contest at Parowan. These few folks
needn't worry. *Maybe Hank, you can tell us how many of your rules
committee guys are from Region 9? *It seems ok for you to push the
Region 9 guys and girls out of their regional contest and make them
drive to another out of region contest, at their expense, when their
own regionals do not even come close to filling up. Region 11 Minden
had a total of 12 folks last year, Ely has tried several regionals,
and they were far from full.
* * *Maybe its time, to rethink, Hank, that alot of folks don't go to
contests and they don't want contests from keeping them from great
soaring sites. The seeding list is shrinking, but the OLC has seen a
great rise. Maybe you rules committee guys can come up, in advance,
with an idea to somehow use the OLC flyers points, along with regional
and national performances. and apply them into a National Seeding list
for all Regional entry's, National entry's and US Team positions for
the World Soaring Championships and the Grand Prix of racing.
* * * *Kool.........711. * * Now, Rick, thats outta the box
thinking.............- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Tommy, It's hard to argue with a straight up reality check!
21

On Jan 2, 8:03Â*pm, wrote:
On Jan 2, 3:07�pm, wrote:





On Jan 2, 4:27�pm, Rick Culbertson wrote:

First, with apoligies to our many international RAS friends whom many
must be thinking "boy you can sure tell when it's winter in the
states" ;-)

UH,

I, as I'm sure other Region 9 pilots do appreciate your and others
creative responses, as ZL notes, perhaps "the best approach for the
short term".

I see from the SSA contest page this two contest concept of Sports /
FAI occurred at Region 2 in 2002. I wonder if you or KS would be so
kind as to expand on this idea, specifically with the benefit of hind-
sight. I, as I'm sure others would like to hear the positive and
negitives as experienced by the organizers and pilot attendees of such
a split contest venue. Additionally, did this idea have the desired
effect in 2002, did anything change in R-2 from 2002 to 2003 due to
this concept, in short, why has this concept not been repeated since
2002?

Just a quick comment to the troupes, in my fairly short six year
sailplane racing experience I've been fortunate to attend regional
contest that contained contest numbers like, KS, A8, DJ, JJ, P7 just
to name a few of the many. Only one of these names comes from Region
9, and the experience for me as a "newbie racer" was and is richer for
it.

Respectfully,

21

The main reason this has not been repeated in R2 is that is a lot
of work and adds a big time committment on the part of the organizers.
This is why I mentioned you need double crew for many important slots.
I see this as critical.
Maybe one overall manager but with 2 people for day to day stuff and 2
retreive
crew leaders. Also 2 CD's is best. 2 weeks of task calling is too
much. This is a good
way for some new volunteers to get mentored also. Watch week 1 and do
week 2.
As to the benefit. R2 sports that year was 100% reverse seeded to get
all the new
folks in and we ran an active Rookie School every day. My recollection
is that
there were close to 25 new folks and all had a good time. 5 did
diamond distance
one day. Many of these pilots have continued to race. i'd love to see
this again.
Another benefit in some cases like Parowan is that ferrying costs of
tugs get spead out
over more tows which can really help finances.
Another negative is the crowding at the end of wk 1 with guys wanting
to come
a little early for contest #2.
In all., I think the negatives can be managed by the right folks so
that you can provide
not only great racing but a terrific learning experience for new
pilots. Making the Sports contest a true
sports class with lower pressure and lots of mentoring is one of the
best ways I can think
of to grow racing.
UH- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Â* Â* Â*Last year, 2007, Region 9 had 2 regionals. Region 9 Parowan, and
Region 9 in Hobbs that tagged along with the Standard Class Nationals.
You can check the turnout for Hobbs on the SSA webpage. I don't see a
turn out problem for Parowan. Sure, the list was long, but drop off
not only happened in 07, but in 04 and 05. Many groups have come and
gone to Parowan over the years, alot of these folks are not geared to
contests, they do call ahead and some groups book a year in advance.
The soaring season window is short at Parowan. Booking any dates their
is like rolling the dice, just ask the 1-26 crowd. The 1-26ers even
had a National their, along with flyin's.
Â* Â* Â*With fuel costs going up, I really see only folks staying home
closer to their gliderport and posting on the OLC. Hank, for you, you
are looking at a 5,000 mile drive, and a total cost well over $2500
for a Regional event. Auto gas will be $4 or so this summer alone.
Look at the Seniors, only a hand full are coming from west of the
Mississippi. Perry fills up, as Chester did, because its the first
Spring time contest. Everyone, everywhere wants out of the house. At
this time last year we had over 80 on the list for Parowan. Mickie
sent me an email last night, its 30 now. OFF topic question, Hank, is
why are their no regionals for 08 listed on the SSA website?
Â* Â* Â* I now am sure that a handful of out of region folks just want to
make sure they can get into the contest at Parowan. These few folks
needn't worry. Â*Maybe Hank, you can tell us how many of your rules
committee guys are from Region 9? Â*It seems ok for you to push the
Region 9 guys and girls out of their regional contest and make them
drive to another out of region contest, at their expense, when their
own regionals do not even come close to filling up. Region 11 Minden
had a total of 12 folks last year, Ely has tried several regionals,
and they were far from full.
Â* Â* Â*Maybe its time, to rethink, Hank, that alot of folks don't go to
contests and they don't want contests from keeping them from great
soaring sites. The seeding list is shrinking, but the OLC has seen a
great rise. Maybe you rules committee guys can come up, in advance,
with an idea to somehow use the OLC flyers points, along with regional
and national performances. and apply them into a National Seeding list
for all Regional entry's, National entry's and US Team positions for
the World Soaring Championships and the Grand Prix of racing.
Â* Â* Â* Â*Kool.........711. Â* Â* Now, Rick, thats outta the box
thinking.............- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This concept was intended to give the organizers an option to
reallocate
the entry priority of a contest they are choosing to run. It does NOT
mean they
must, only they may if they choose.
It is true that one could get in to Parowan at the last minute like JJ
did, but that is
because he is in the retired class and could jump at the last minute.
Other qualified pilots
can't even consider this because they need to plan in advance.
Also understand that this is a proposed rule and will not be
adopted(assuming it is) until
the Winter board meeting. Then the option would become available to
organizers.
Presumably the organizers for this years Region 9 contests are
watching these exchanges
and will consider them when deciding how they want to set up their
contests.
As to using OLC for seeding, I personally don't see the point. It is
not hard to get into contests
now with limited exception of a couple, so the ranking system works.
How do we equate performances
by guys picking the best 10 days of the year on Wednesdays when we are
all at work to comparative performances by pilots all flying on the
same days?.
As far as representation on the RC, you, of course, know that none of
the current members is from
R9. That said, how many R9 people have been nominated by their
director to run? If you have some
concern about representation, somebody needs to step up to the plate.
In any case I believe the RC
does it's best to work in the interest of all pilots even if some
changes don't make everybody happy. They
don't all make me happy, but we work for what we think is best for
all. This is part of why the RC asks for
input.
Cheers
UH

As this thread has shown, some pilots enter just before the 60 day cut-
off, saying; "I better enter while I still can, I'll decide later if I
really want to do this". The list spikes to over 80 and then about a
week or two before the contest these "casual interest" weenies, drop
out..................sometimes without the commom courtesy to even
notify the organizers! The group that pulls this crap isn't large,
about 10, but this means 10 guys that really wanted to come have been
denied the opertunity. The rules committee has tried to address this
issue with the 50% proposal. Other solutions might work; a $200 (non-
refundable) deposite might just do the trick. For the rules committee,
I say again; Thanks for doing a thankless job, well.
JJ

I like it Uncle Hank, I like it a lot! Especially this year, where we
have the sports nats starting just 2 days after the Parowan regionals.
I'm just to frigin old to do both, but I'd do a Parowan 'sports only'
contest a week earlier, rest up and head for Montague. Charlie &
Micki, are you up for something like this? I'll help as much as I can.
JJ

How about this(the organizers may choke!)
Have 2 contests one after the other.
Region 9 Sports with emphasis on newbies first and whoever else wants
to come second.
Include in this a Rookie School for the new guys.
6 Day contest Sunday to Friday
Region 9 Super Regional
FAI classes - only have a Sports Class if FAI won't fill.
6 days Sunday to Friday
You can't enter both unless they don't fill.
2 50 glider contests provide 100 entry slots- should be no whining
about
getting in.
Try to get a couple entrants from each contest to help the other with
organization
and grunt work.
The benefit of this is that much of the infrastructure comes and gets
better utilized.
You just can't wear out one or 2 *people doing this.
Karl and Iris did this a few years ago and it was a huge success. BUT
you gotta spread
the work out.
UH- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I heard today a bunch of motor-glider guys have an event booked at
Parowan the week before the regional. Popular place.
-Dave
JJ Sinclair wrote:
I like it Uncle Hank, I like it a lot! Especially this year, where we
have the sports nats starting just 2 days after the Parowan regionals.
I'm just to frigin old to do both, but I'd do a Parowan 'sports only'
contest a week earlier, rest up and head for Montague. Charlie &
Micki, are you up for something like this? I'll help as much as I can.
JJ

How about this(the organizers may choke!)
Have 2 contests one after the other.
Region 9 Sports with emphasis on newbies first and whoever else wants
to come second.
Include in this a Rookie School for the new guys.
6 Day contest Sunday to Friday
Region 9 Super Regional
FAI classes - only have a Sports Class if FAI won't fill.
6 days Sunday to Friday
You can't enter both unless they don't fill.
2 50 glider contests provide 100 entry slots- should be no whining
about
getting in.
Try to get a couple entrants from each contest to help the other with
organization
and grunt work.
The benefit of this is that much of the infrastructure comes and gets
better utilized.
You just can't wear out one or 2 people doing this.
Karl and Iris did this a few years ago and it was a huge success. BUT
you gotta spread
the work out.
UH- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -