Flapped Glider Recommendations...

Noel,

noel.wade wrote:
Hi All,

Assuming a budget of under $30k,
snip
BUT, I must say that the quick rigging of the Russia and its automatic
control hookups are really, really nice (as is its maneuverability and
other handling qualities).
snip
Congratulations - you have one of the most gratifying illnesses known to
mankind: the illness (the decision process) is almost as fun as the cure
(flying your new toy).

Bottom line: I want a 15m ship, and want it to be easy to rig and fly
(so I fly it more often). It has to be a good weak-weather performer,
and cost less than $30k (preferably closer to $25k).

The top names that spring to mind a Mini-Nimbus, Mosquito, LS-3.
(And yes I've read the Moffat article, Johnson Reports, and done a
crap-load of research online about these planes)
snip
I've chatted with Mini and Mosquito pilots (its surprisingly hard to
find someone who's flown both), and am hoping to fly both a Mini and
an LS-3a at Minden this winter/spring (though if I buy one, I think
I'd prefer the flaperon LS-3). No clear decision as of yet...

By my characterization you've listed 3 1st generation glass 15-meter
ships. Though Mini-Nimbii C models do have carbon (I believe), the
basic design is 1st-generation 15-meter. Each on your list pretty much
uses the same Wortmann FX 67K 150/170 airfoils.

Add to that list Slingsby Vegas and Zunis. Both have automatic control
hookups. The Zuni has but one loose (main) pin; I can't remember if
Vegas also have a loose tailplane pin (Zunis do not). While I've seen
neither listed recently in "Soaring", and I'd guess Vegas have higher
asking prices, neither being 'German glass' both probably inhabit price
points below German equivalents. Zunis are Experimental (no ATC).

I've rigged both, and both are as simple as any 15-meter glass ship
(with distinctly lighter-than-LS-3 wing panels. Strictly out of
curiosity, I once went from opening my Zuni trailer to being ready to
pre-flight in 8 timed minutes; 7 minutes reverse...no rushing/BS
allowed - just rigging - and several hours later - derigging.) Risking
offending retired Slingsby employees, I'd describe a Vega's main panels
as essentially Mosquito/Mini-Nimbus-like. Vegas and Zunis can be found
with various amounts of carbon (and Kevlar in Zunis) in them.

FWIW, my somewhat jaundiced view of why 4 of these 5 designs (LS-3
excluded) have discounted prices can in part - be attributed to their
'unconventional' pattern-drag devices. Since 2 such designs are on
*your* short list, I'm guessing you're comfortable with having to ascend
the associated learning curve (to which I add, "Good on you!").

Writing as one who transitioned from 2-33 to 1-26 to C-70 to HP-14 to
Zuni (the latter 3, no-spoiler/large-deflection-flap-only ships), place
me in the religious camp that doesn't believe only fools with a death
wish willingly fly flaps-only ships. The C-70/HP-14 purchase decisions
were cost-driven; the HP-14/Zuni purchase decisions were
flap-preference-driven. (IMHO, there's no such thing as too much
disposable drag come glider landing time! Mosquitoes, Mini-Nimbii and
Vegas have considerably more than Zuni's...and less than my former HP-14.)

Final observation - for the type of flying you described, there's not a
dime's worth of difference in performance between any of these 5 ships
that isn't *far* outweighed by the pilot's
skill/tenacity/mental-airmass-model. Handling differences will of
course be apparent & quantifiable by any competent test pilot, but
(IMHO) the 2 Big Ones (i.e. life-related) to anyone considering moving
to such ships a 1) pitch sensitivity and 2) stall behavior. Having
flown only the Zuni of the 5 ships above, I'd characterize its pitch
feel as: sensitive & numb (side stick implementation; never flown w. a
center parallelogram stick - also to be found), a combo conducive to
alarming & potentially damaging PIO's if flown w/o a decent checkout.
Not a problem otherwise. Once aloft...IMHO, the FX 67K 150/170 airfoil
is pure pussycat.

Buy what you can find/afford/fit-in...then fly every chance you get.
Get good preflight input from someone(s) experienced in type
(important), apply your own considered judgment to said advice, fly
accordingly, and have at it. You won't be sorry!

Regards,
Bob W.

Do not forget the PIK-20 that comes in different versions. It has a similar airfoils as the previously mentionned gliders and performs almost as well as a LS-4. They are available at or below $20K and are, to me, the best value for the money. They also do not have a gel coat finish with the accompanying problems of old age.

Mine is a 20B with the carbon spar option, which saves about 30 Lbs per wing. There is no self rigging but is easy and fast to set up.

I fly in Eastern Canada with conditions similar to what you describe, most of the time, and I have a ton of fun. It climbs as well as anything we have in the club with the main difference being the pilot. I still have many years of fun learning ahead of me.

Richard F.

Originally Posted by Bob Whelan[_3_]

Noel,

noel.wade wrote:
Hi All,

Assuming a budget of under $30k,
snip
BUT, I must say that the quick rigging of the Russia and its automatic
control hookups are really, really nice (as is its maneuverability and
other handling qualities).
snip
Congratulations - you have one of the most gratifying illnesses known to
mankind: the illness (the decision process) is almost as fun as the cure
(flying your new toy).

Bottom line: I want a 15m ship, and want it to be easy to rig and fly
(so I fly it more often). It has to be a good weak-weather performer,
and cost less than $30k (preferably closer to $25k).

The top names that spring to mind a Mini-Nimbus, Mosquito, LS-3.
(And yes I've read the Moffat article, Johnson Reports, and done a
crap-load of research online about these planes)
snip
I've chatted with Mini and Mosquito pilots (its surprisingly hard to
find someone who's flown both), and am hoping to fly both a Mini and
an LS-3a at Minden this winter/spring (though if I buy one, I think
I'd prefer the flaperon LS-3). No clear decision as of yet...

By my characterization you've listed 3 1st generation glass 15-meter
ships. Though Mini-Nimbii C models do have carbon (I believe), the
basic design is 1st-generation 15-meter. Each on your list pretty much
uses the same Wortmann FX 67K 150/170 airfoils.

Add to that list Slingsby Vegas and Zunis. Both have automatic control
hookups. The Zuni has but one loose (main) pin; I can't remember if
Vegas also have a loose tailplane pin (Zunis do not). While I've seen
neither listed recently in "Soaring", and I'd guess Vegas have higher
asking prices, neither being 'German glass' both probably inhabit price
points below German equivalents. Zunis are Experimental (no ATC).

I've rigged both, and both are as simple as any 15-meter glass ship
(with distinctly lighter-than-LS-3 wing panels. Strictly out of
curiosity, I once went from opening my Zuni trailer to being ready to
pre-flight in 8 timed minutes; 7 minutes reverse...no rushing/BS
allowed - just rigging - and several hours later - derigging.) Risking
offending retired Slingsby employees, I'd describe a Vega's main panels
as essentially Mosquito/Mini-Nimbus-like. Vegas and Zunis can be found
with various amounts of carbon (and Kevlar in Zunis) in them.

FWIW, my somewhat jaundiced view of why 4 of these 5 designs (LS-3
excluded) have discounted prices can in part - be attributed to their
'unconventional' pattern-drag devices. Since 2 such designs are on
*your* short list, I'm guessing you're comfortable with having to ascend
the associated learning curve (to which I add, "Good on you!").

Writing as one who transitioned from 2-33 to 1-26 to C-70 to HP-14 to
Zuni (the latter 3, no-spoiler/large-deflection-flap-only ships), place
me in the religious camp that doesn't believe only fools with a death
wish willingly fly flaps-only ships. The C-70/HP-14 purchase decisions
were cost-driven; the HP-14/Zuni purchase decisions were
flap-preference-driven. (IMHO, there's no such thing as too much
disposable drag come glider landing time! Mosquitoes, Mini-Nimbii and
Vegas have considerably more than Zuni's...and less than my former HP-14.)

Final observation - for the type of flying you described, there's not a
dime's worth of difference in performance between any of these 5 ships
that isn't *far* outweighed by the pilot's
skill/tenacity/mental-airmass-model. Handling differences will of
course be apparent & quantifiable by any competent test pilot, but
(IMHO) the 2 Big Ones (i.e. life-related) to anyone considering moving
to such ships a 1) pitch sensitivity and 2) stall behavior. Having
flown only the Zuni of the 5 ships above, I'd characterize its pitch
feel as: sensitive & numb (side stick implementation; never flown w. a
center parallelogram stick - also to be found), a combo conducive to
alarming & potentially damaging PIO's if flown w/o a decent checkout.
Not a problem otherwise. Once aloft...IMHO, the FX 67K 150/170 airfoil
is pure pussycat.

Buy what you can find/afford/fit-in...then fly every chance you get.
Get good preflight input from someone(s) experienced in type
(important), apply your own considered judgment to said advice, fly
accordingly, and have at it. You won't be sorry!

Regards,
Bob W.

My LAK 12 has a combination of automatic and manual control hook-ups.
The maual ones fit easily and are a pleasure to use - tha automatic
ones rely on the wings (flaps) and elevators being lined up perfectly
before the final push. If everything in not perfectly lined - the
links tend to damage the sockets into which they fit and the whole
wing does not go on - not an ideal situation. Modern automatic hookups
look fantastic but poorly designed ones are no easier than manual hook-
ups.

Clinton
LAK 12

On Jan 7, 11:05*am, Bob Whelan wrote:

By my characterization you've listed 3 1st generation glass 15-meter
ships. *Though Mini-Nimbii C models do have carbon (I believe), the
basic design is 1st-generation 15-meter. *Each on your list pretty much
uses the same Wortmann FX 67K 150/170 airfoils.

Right, although at different thicknesses, empty weights, control
layouts, cockpit designs, tail sizes, and such. ;-)

Add to that list Slingsby Vegas and Zunis. *

I have never heard of the Vegas - will have to look it up.

Before I bought my Russia I went to So. Cal. and looked at the very
last Zuni II ever built. I didn't fly it; but messed around with it
on the ground for an hour or two. The push-pull stick (even though
this one was center-mounted) did NOT feel good to me - the thought of
having to move my whole arm (with the sensitivity of an all-flying
tail) just looked like it would make for VERY little feel/feedback.
Also, I am 6' 1" and 200 lbs - and my legs interfered a bit with the
flap operating crank. I concluded that the Zuni is a cool ship, but
not for me.

...and yes, if the LS-3 flaperons didn't require so much darned lead,
I would totally be happy with its rigging! *chuckle*

I would be curious to hear more information about how the LS fittings
are "semi-automatic". I've seen guys with PIKs and ASW's fishing
around behind their seat for control hookups and it just didnt look
like any fun! :-P

...My Russia has totally spoiled me, rigging-wise. With _no_ support
gear besides a stool, I can single-handedly pull my wings from the
trailer, carry one under my arms, and hook it up. Total time to rig
(without tape): 7 minutes by myself. 5 minutes with a helper!

There are a couple of Libelles at our field, and while I fit in them
(just barely, but comfortably) I would like to try for something a
little newer (though an H-301 is definitely on my list of
possibilities).

Since I also help friends rig an Apis or two, then watch G102s and
PIKs and an Open Cirrus struggle to get hooked up, I'm a bit gunshy
about heavy and non-automatic-hookup aircraft. Perhaps unnecessarily
so?

When it comes to performance - if you really think the performance is
that close, then I'd put more emphasis on handling. Which of these
aircraft do folks think is the most maneuverable / responsive?

Thanks for all of the advice, and I'm open to more!

Take care,

--Noel

"noel.wade" wrote in message
:

SNIP


I would be curious to hear more information about how the LS fittings
are "semi-automatic". I've seen guys with PIKs and ASW's fishing
around behind their seat for control hookups and it just didnt look
like any fun! :-P






Noel,



The flapperons (LS3) or the flaps (LS3-a) connect by aligning a pin on
the side of the fuselage into a receptacle in the edge of the
flap(peron).



On the LS3-a you also need to connect the ailerons (L'Hottellier
fittings) under the turtledeck and pin them or engage the safety
sleeves. This is probably what you remember seeing people work on.



However, with just a small amount of practice, one can do them by feel
only, safety them, and test them in a _very_ short time.



If it takes me longer than 25-30 seconds (TOTAL! Including safetying and
testing) then I am not paying attention. The first time I did it, it
seemed like it took me 15 minutes to do it. The second time it took
only a couple of minutes. After a few more times, well under a minute.



So, at least on an LS3-a, it just is not an issue.





Larry Goddard

Former LS3-a driver

Thanks for the LS info, Larry!

Ray -

Great, but how do I find out how "nice" the trailer is without flying
around the country and looking at each one of them? :-P Everyone says
they have a "good" trailer - but the definition of "good" seems to
vary a lot based on who's selling and who's buying! heheheh...

I totally agree, though. Our club used to have a Russia and it got a
bad reputation for never being flown. The club got rid of it before I
joined. People said it was good to get rid of it, but with a little
bit of probing I found out that people LOVED it in the air - they just
HATED dragging it awkwardly out of the trailer. This is another place
where my Russia has spoiled me - its a custom-built trailer where the
wings are on sliding tracks, and the front and rear doors capture the
wing roots & tips to keep the whole thing secured for trailering.

LS drivers: What do you think about the fact that the airbrake and
flap handles share space? Johnson's review dinged both the 3 and the
3a for this. How much does it annoy you? Are you ever concerned that
you'll have to put the flaps down at high speed (contrary to the POH)
in order to get the spoilers out?

Thanks a bunch, take care,

--Noel

On Jan 7, 1:51*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Thanks for the LS info, Larry!

Ray -

Great, but how do I find out how "nice" the trailer is without flying
around the country and looking at each one of them? :-P *Everyone says
they have a "good" trailer - but the definition of "good" seems to
vary a lot based on who's selling and who's buying! heheheh...

I totally agree, though. *Our club used to have a Russia and it got a
bad reputation for never being flown. *The club got rid of it before I
joined. *People said it was good to get rid of it, but with a little
bit of probing I found out that people LOVED it in the air - they just
HATED dragging it awkwardly out of the trailer. *This is another place
where my Russia has spoiled me - its a custom-built trailer where the
wings are on sliding tracks, and the front and rear doors capture the
wing roots & tips to keep the whole thing secured for trailering.

LS drivers: *What do you think about the fact that the airbrake and
flap handles share space? *Johnson's review dinged both the 3 and the
3a for this. *How much does it annoy you? *Are you ever concerned that
you'll have to put the flaps down at high speed (contrary to the POH)
in order to get the spoilers out?

Thanks a bunch, take care,

--Noel

Noel,
I've been flying a LS 3a for a year and so far the flap/spoiler
operation has not been an issue. I have yet to be in a position to
where I felt the need to depoly the spoilers at high speeds.

I can self rig the ship in about 30 to 40 minutes. I use pins to
safety the airleron connections and that does take the most time. My
hands get a little sweatty here in the Arizona sun.

MIke

I can self rig the ship in about 30 to 40 minutes. *I use pins to
safety the airleron connections and that does take the most time. *My
hands get a little sweatty here in the Arizona sun.

Thanks for the info!

How are the spoiler hookups - similar to the ailerons?

--Noel

"noel.wade" wrote in message
:

I can self rig the ship in about 30 to 40 minutes. I use pins to
safety the airleron connections and that does take the most time. My
hands get a little sweatty here in the Arizona sun.

Thanks for the info!

How are the spoiler hookups - similar to the ailerons?

--Noel





Sorry for omitting that earlier, Noel,



The spoilers are automatic as well. There is a rotating shaft with 2
pins in the side of the fuselage that inserts into a receptacle on each
wing. Wing will not go on unless this is properly positioned.





Larry

Noel:

For starters, you can tell a good trailer if it says Cobra, Komet,
Eberle or Pfeiffer on it.

There are some dogs within these makes but it is a good starting
point. As has been pointed out, if the trailer sucks (you are
exhausted +/- bleeding +/- damage to glider after rig or derig), it
really takes the joy out of flying and you begin to weight the hassle:
fun ratio every time you think about flying.