Obstacle avoidance between take-off and airway

J.Kahn wrote:


So you can be grounded by unfavorable winds... that sucks.

I wonder if the reason is simply that departure in that direction
doesn't meet 200 ft/NM at some distance out, maybe 10 or 20 miles, but
the FAA has not got around to doing the required survey to arrive at a
specified departure gradient requirement so they just declare it NA
until someday they get around to it. I believe that you have to be
able to have obstacle clearance with 200 ft/NM out to 22 NM from the
runway before you have to have a specified gradient other than default,
which gets you to 4400 HAA.

John

They were required to take a look at 26. For the type of aircraft that
use that airport, the mountains to the west present an unacceptable
climb gradient requirement.

Mxsmanic wrote:

J.Kahn writes:


If no instrument departure gradients are published in a departure
procedure, then the default gradient requirement applies, which is 200
ft/NM.


OK, thanks.

It looks like IFR departures from runway 26 in L35 aren't allowed at all, so I
suppose I'll have to depart from runway 8 in the future if I really want to
depart IFR. Odd that there's nothing for runway 26 since it leads right over
the lake.

Gosh, I wish you would submit your resume to the FAA. Then, you could
be the boss of TERPS and get these credits for little narrow lakes
applied and forget the big friggen mountains a bit further out, you
numbskull.

Sam Spade writes:

Gosh, I wish you would submit your resume to the FAA. Then, you could
be the boss of TERPS and get these credits for little narrow lakes
applied and forget the big friggen mountains a bit further out, you
numbskull.

The big mountains might or might not be a problem, depending on the aircraft.

Mxsmanic wrote:

Sam Spade writes:


Gosh, I wish you would submit your resume to the FAA. Then, you could
be the boss of TERPS and get these credits for little narrow lakes
applied and forget the big friggen mountains a bit further out, you
numbskull.


The big mountains might or might not be a problem, depending on the aircraft.

Your judgment differs from the FAA's. Why don't you go argue with them:

http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=nfpo/west

Sam Spade wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:

J.Kahn writes:


If no instrument departure gradients are published in a departure
procedure, then the default gradient requirement applies, which is
200 ft/NM.


OK, thanks.

It looks like IFR departures from runway 26 in L35 aren't allowed at
all, so I
suppose I'll have to depart from runway 8 in the future if I really
want to
depart IFR. Odd that there's nothing for runway 26 since it leads
right over
the lake.

Gosh, I wish you would submit your resume to the FAA. Then, you could
be the boss of TERPS and get these credits for little narrow lakes
applied and forget the big friggen mountains a bit further out, you
numbskull.

At Canadian airports in the mountains where the required gradient is too
much they have a cat called "Spec Vis" which may involve a vfr initial
climb over the airport, then to a fix, then a shuttle climb to mea. See
the dep procedure for Prince George BC below. Do any US airports in the
hills do that?


DEPARTURE PROCEDURE
Rwy 09 - SPEC VIS - CLB visual over APRT
to 1200. Continue CLB on TRK 271 from
"YPW" NDB to 2400. Left turn direct
"YPW" NDB to cross at 3900. Shuttle
(max 200 kt) to MEA BPOC.

On Jan 14, 9:50*am, "J.Kahn" wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
Yesterday I tried to plan a flight from Big Bear City (California) to Santa
Monica, in a Bonanza. *The routing I worked out was L35..DAWNA.V8.PDZ.V186
TIFNI.ELMOO.DARTS..KSMO. *DAWNA is on a portion of the airway that shows a MEA
of 10500 on the chart. *Since I was westbound, I figured to climb to 12000. *I
planned to depart from runway 26. *My calculations showed that the Bonanza
could carry out this climb.

My question is: *How do I make sure that I don't hit anything between the
runway and the first fix on my filed route? *The ODP for Big Bear only gives
details for runway 8, and says "N/A" for runway 26. *The only departure
procedure is an obstacle departure, also for runway 8. *So what's the proper
way for me to plan a flight so that I don't run into anything between the time
I leave runway 26 and the time I reach DAWNA? *Should I use a VFR sectional?
Is there something on en-route IFR charts that I'm missing? *Did I overlook
something in the Instrument Procedures Handbook (it seems surprisingly vague
on this)?

If no instrument departure gradients are published in a departure
procedure, then the default gradient requirement applies, which is 200
ft/NM.

Huh? The FAA guarantees you won't hit anything when you are not flying
a procedure as long as you climb at 200 ft/nm? I think you are mixing
up two different things. When there is no procedure in place for
departure you grab your sectional and plan a route. Lots of airports
don't even appear in the approach manual.

-robert, CFII

I believe the rule is that if there is a departure procedure
published, fly the departure procedure.

If there is an approach chart published, but but no departure
procedure, the rule is no turns before 400' AGL, and maintain 200 FPNM
and you will be clear of obstructions.

No approach plate, you are on your own.

Does this not cover everything?


On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:37:12 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Jan 14, 9:50*am, "J.Kahn" wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
Yesterday I tried to plan a flight from Big Bear City (California) to Santa
Monica, in a Bonanza. *The routing I worked out was L35..DAWNA.V8.PDZ.V186
TIFNI.ELMOO.DARTS..KSMO. *DAWNA is on a portion of the airway that shows a MEA
of 10500 on the chart. *Since I was westbound, I figured to climb to 12000. *I
planned to depart from runway 26. *My calculations showed that the Bonanza
could carry out this climb.

My question is: *How do I make sure that I don't hit anything between the
runway and the first fix on my filed route? *The ODP for Big Bear only gives
details for runway 8, and says "N/A" for runway 26. *The only departure
procedure is an obstacle departure, also for runway 8. *So what's the proper
way for me to plan a flight so that I don't run into anything between the time
I leave runway 26 and the time I reach DAWNA? *Should I use a VFR sectional?
Is there something on en-route IFR charts that I'm missing? *Did I overlook
something in the Instrument Procedures Handbook (it seems surprisingly vague
on this)?

If no instrument departure gradients are published in a departure
procedure, then the default gradient requirement applies, which is 200
ft/NM.

Huh? The FAA guarantees you won't hit anything when you are not flying
a procedure as long as you climb at 200 ft/nm? I think you are mixing
up two different things. When there is no procedure in place for
departure you grab your sectional and plan a route. Lots of airports
don't even appear in the approach manual.

-robert, CFII

wrote:

I believe the rule is that if there is a departure procedure
published, fly the departure procedure.

If there is an approach chart published, but but no departure
procedure, the rule is no turns before 400' AGL, and maintain 200 FPNM
and you will be clear of obstructions.

Known as a diverse departure area as per the AIM

No approach plate, you are on your own.

Does this not cover everything?

No. The runway has to have published IFR takeoff minimums AND no ODP
for you to make a diverse departure.

This is not my understanding. According to old Wally Roberts, who
once published great IFR articles for the IFR Refresher, the TERPS
guys are required to evaluate departures for every runway for any
airport for which an IAP is published, and if obstacles penetrate the
200:1 plane, then an ODP is required.

Therefore if a pilot follows the 200:1 plane in all cases where there
is an IAP published, and no ODP, he is assured of obstacle clearance
(unless the runway is designated NA). There is no need for published
IFR Takeoff Minimums for this to apply, as I understand it.

This has always been my understanding. If there is a source that
proves this to be incorrect, I would appreciate being so enlightened.




On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 06:59:34 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:

wrote:

I believe the rule is that if there is a departure procedure
published, fly the departure procedure.

If there is an approach chart published, but but no departure
procedure, the rule is no turns before 400' AGL, and maintain 200 FPNM
and you will be clear of obstructions.

Known as a diverse departure area as per the AIM

No approach plate, you are on your own.

Does this not cover everything?

No. The runway has to have published IFR takeoff minimums AND no ODP
for you to make a diverse departure.

On Jan 15, 4:22*am, wrote:
I believe the rule is that if there is a departure procedure
published, fly the departure procedure.

The procedure has to be published for your runway. So in our sim guys
case he could have made up his own departure because the runway he was
using does not have a published departure procedure. To my knowledge
there are no non-towered airports that prohibit IFR departures from a
certain runway.

-Robert