Mid-air in California

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:55:03 GMT, wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:45:03 GMT, wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:32:09 -0800, C J Campbell
wrote in
2008012108320950073-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:

The FAA probably had nothing to do with a crash at Corona.

Wasn't it the FAA who created Class B, C, and D airspace? To the
extent that this concentrates aircraft not in contact with ATC in the
limited airspace outside of Bravo, Charlie, and Delta airspace, the
FAA can perhaps be seen as contributory. But it's a stretch.

Here's a TAC: http://skyvector.com/#32-24-2-4488-3214

Yeah, look at it closely.

The non-ATC controlled airspace around Corona is hardly limited.


I suppose that depends on how one characterizes 'limited.'

What I see is:

Class D with a ceiling of 2,700' within a mile north

TPA at Corona is 1533 and the pattern is to the south. The only way
to get to Corona through the CNO class D is to first go through the
ONT class C, and almost nobody does that except students being shown
how to use the radio.

The floor of outer ring of the KONT Class C is 2,700', so there's no
need to transition the KONT Class C from the north though the KCNO
Class D if you stay below 2,700', but that's not at issue here.

Or in other words, there is a huge area around the class C, so it is
hardly airspace limiting.


Class Charlie with a floor of 2,700' overhead

See above. If you are under the Class C and going to or coming from
Corona, you would never be that high anyway.

If remaining in VMC required it, you might.

Not unless your A/C climbs like a fighter or has airbrakes for the
decent.

However, if it is not VMC below you, you certainly aren't going VFR
to Corona


Another Class Charlie a few miles to the SE

The floor of the SNA class C in that area is 3500 feet. There is no
reason to go in that direction unless you are actually going to SNA.

Of course, there is the reciprocal to that statement, when you are
arriving at KAJO.

So how would the presence of SNA be a limitation on getting to Corona
from SNA?

You can't go down the coast that way as you would have to go through
a restricted areas around Camp Pendleton.

All you have to do to fly down the coast is stay a mile or two off
shore, and you'll be clear of R2503 A & D.

SNA is to the west; if you were going down the coast to one of the San
Diego airports starting from Cornoa, the direct route is between SNA
and Camp Pendleton.


[...]


And then there are the ~4,000' mountains ~5 miles to the southeast and
the Paradise VORTAC ~3 miles NW that tend to concentrate aircraft.

And on the other side of those hills (the mountains are to the north)
is SNA and two restricted areas. You aren't going that way unless
you are going to either SNA or Hawaii.

I can think of no reason to anywhere near Paradise VORTAC either departing
or arriving VFR at Corona.

KAJO is located 3 miles from Paradise VORTAC; you don't get a choice.

Traffic over Paradise is +/- 3 miles, and again I can think of no
reason to be near Paradise.

I find those as limiting the airspace available to flights not in
contact with ATC. You say 'tomato'...

I find the Pacific Ocean and the 10,000 foot mountains far more
limiting than any controlled airspace area.

Agreed. But that wasn't part of what we were discussing.

I thought were discussing the limitations of controlled airspace.


Most of the airports in the basin are towered. The only ones that are
not are CCB, AJO, L67 (going away to developers), SBD, RIR and REI.

What is your point?

The point is that if you are going to controlled airspace on purpose,
the fact that the airspace is controlled is hardly limiting as you
have to talk to ATC and going no-radio isn't an option.

Of course, this is a non-issue for IFR flights and those receiving
Radar Traffic Advisory Service from ATC.

Though in some places it is a very good ideo to have flight following,
one can fly for hours in the basin without turning on the radio.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:55:03 GMT, wrote
See above. If you are under the Class C and going to or coming from
Corona, you would never be that high anyway.

If remaining in VMC required it, you might.


If you're remaining in VMC by climbing, you're not arriving VFR at AJO,
and you wouldn't transit the area that low to begin with (see: mountains).

Of course, there is the reciprocal to that statement, when you are
arriving at KAJO.

But no one flies SNA-AJO (even students; why fly all the way out there
when you're practically standing on a perfectly good Class C?), and
there's no other conceivable scenario that would involve the SNA Class C
and arriving at AJO. You're either higher than the top, or have gone
around it as a more efficient path.


I can think of no reason to anywhere near Paradise VORTAC either departing
or arriving VFR at Corona.

KAJO is located 3 miles from Paradise VORTAC; you don't get a choice.

All the traffic that transits the area over Paradise does so much higher
than the ONT Class C, for obvious reasons, and becomes a non-issue to
local AJO traffic.

TheSmokingGnu

On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:05:39 GMT, TheSmokingGnu
wrote in
Tbclj.3438$hk4.3134@trnddc03:

But no one flies SNA-AJO (even students; why fly all the way out there
when you're practically standing on a perfectly good Class C?), ...

The cost of fuel is considerably cheaper at AJO than at SNA (and many
other places in the nation). That's enough to motivate some folks
with aircraft with considerable fuel capacity such as the PA28-235 (85
gallons) to fill up at AJO.

On 2008-01-21 08:57:00 -0800, Larry Dighera said:

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:32:09 -0800, C J Campbell
wrote in
2008012108320950073-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:

The FAA probably had nothing to do with a crash at Corona.

Wasn't it the FAA who created Class B, C, and D airspace? To the
extent that this concentrates aircraft not in contact with ATC in the
limited airspace outside of Bravo, Charlie, and Delta airspace, the
FAA can perhaps be seen as contributory. But it's a stretch.

Here's a TAC: http://skyvector.com/#32-24-2-4488-3214

In any event, I doubt if the FAA's affirmative action program had
anything to do with it.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:05:39 GMT, TheSmokingGnu
wrote in
Tbclj.3438$hk4.3134@trnddc03:

But no one flies SNA-AJO (even students; why fly all the way out there
when you're practically standing on a perfectly good Class C?), ...

The cost of fuel is considerably cheaper at AJO than at SNA (and many
other places in the nation). That's enough to motivate some folks
with aircraft with considerable fuel capacity such as the PA28-235 (85
gallons) to fill up at AJO.

While you are correct in that fueling at AJO will, in the PA-28's case,
save you about $25 (over closer services at FUL, and ~$135 per at SNA),
you have to take into account the added wear and tear on the aircraft;
AJO is 19nm straightline, and the PA-28 will need something like 0.4
hours roundtrip to fuel at AJO (under perfect, traffic-less conditions
and ideal flight path and no winds; don't forget time-on-ground, too).
Assuming a TBO of 1500 hours (wild guess, am I ballpark?), you're
looking at a savings of ~$43,000; can you overhaul an O-540 with that
much money? What will it cost you in oil, tires and time to fly all the
way out there and back each time for fuel?

Also consider that this is relying on the only available supplier at SNA
on AirNav; I'm almost certain there are more FBO's at SNA than one (been
a long time). Consider that LGB is closer than AJO to SNA, and has
self-serve fuel just 30 cents more expensive than AJO.

Besides, I don't even think there are any good hamburger joints at AJO.

I mean really! What's the point? :P

TheSmokingGnu

On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:20:14 GMT, TheSmokingGnu
wrote in
yWflj.3634$hk4.200@trnddc03:

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:05:39 GMT, TheSmokingGnu
wrote in
Tbclj.3438$hk4.3134@trnddc03:

But no one flies SNA-AJO (even students; why fly all the way out there
when you're practically standing on a perfectly good Class C?), ...

The cost of fuel is considerably cheaper at AJO than at SNA (and many
other places in the nation). That's enough to motivate some folks
with aircraft with considerable fuel capacity such as the PA28-235 (85
gallons) to fill up at AJO.

While you are correct in that fueling at AJO will, in the PA-28's case,
save you about $25 (over closer services at FUL, and ~$135 per at SNA),
you have to take into account the added wear and tear on the aircraft;
AJO is 19nm straightline, and the PA-28 will need something like 0.4
hours roundtrip to fuel at AJO (under perfect, traffic-less conditions
and ideal flight path and no winds; don't forget time-on-ground, too).
Assuming a TBO of 1500 hours (wild guess, am I ballpark?),

You're only off by 33%: Lycoming O-540 TBO = 2,000 hours.

you're
looking at a savings of ~$43,000; can you overhaul an O-540 with that
much money? What will it cost you in oil, tires and time to fly all the
way out there and back each time for fuel?

Also consider that this is relying on the only available supplier at SNA
on AirNav; I'm almost certain there are more FBO's at SNA than one (been
a long time).

Two. Newport Jet Center, and Signature Flight Support.

Consider that LGB is closer than AJO to SNA, and has
self-serve fuel just 30 cents more expensive than AJO.

Besides, I don't even think there are any good hamburger joints at AJO.

The fare at Bob's Chili & Chow Hall is good for dinner food. I'd rate
it above Flo's at Chino.

I mean really! What's the point? :P

Bragging rights about havening purchased the cheapest fuel for $4.10 /
gallon instead of $6.01? That's nearly a 33% ($1.91/gallon) savings,
or say $143.25 savings for 75 gallons.

Wow, what are the odds of two Cessnas hitting each other at the same
airport within a ten year peiod?

Bad Karma!


denny

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:45:03 GMT, wrote in
:

Of course, this is a non-issue for IFR flights and those receiving
Radar Traffic Advisory Service from ATC.

Though in some places it is a very good ideo to have flight following,
one can fly for hours in the basin without turning on the radio.


One can indeed, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good idea or
responsible. Such generalizations, without specifics such as location,
altitude, aircraft type, ..., aren't too useful.

Personally I always burn a landing light and receive Radar Traffic
Advisory Service within 100 miles of Los Angeles. I've personally
seen a lot of traffic that didn't see me, and that drives a stake
through the heart of the Big Sky Theory for me. A prudent pilot needs
to employ all the eyeballs, equipment, and services available to him
if he intends to escape being labeled as negligent.

In article yWflj.3634$hk4.200@trnddc03,
TheSmokingGnu wrote:
Also consider that this is relying on the only available supplier at SNA
on AirNav; I'm almost certain there are more FBO's at SNA than one (been
a long time).

Yup. There are two: Signature and Atlantic Aviation. Current fuel prices
for both are about $6.00/gal at the moment. No self serve. OTOH, AJO's
fuel price is currently $4.10.

Besides, I don't even think there are any good hamburger joints at AJO.

WHAT?!? Bob's Chili and Chow Hall is quite possibly one of the best
greasy-spoon airport restaurants in the entire LA Basin! You need to get
away from your home airport a little more often. We're talking
classic $100 hamburger fare here folks.

-- Dane

http://www.venturacountystar.com/new...-collision-in/
Investigators seek cause of midair collision in Corona
By Greg Risling
The Associated Press
Tuesday, January 22, 2008

... There were bodies falling out of the sky," witness Hector
Hernandez told KCBS-TV. "One of them crashed into the top of a
Ford Mustang, and another one fell not too far behind that one on
the parking lot."

In one of the car lots, the twisted hull of a plane rested against
two vehicles.

Witnesses told authorities that one of the planes slammed into the
other. One of the aircraft shattered on impact, while the other
spiraled to the ground, left mostly intact.

Authorities haven't released the planes' origins or destinations.
The crash occurred about a mile south of the Corona Municipal
Airport, which doesn't have a manned control tower.

The crash is the sixth in the area over the past 10 years.

...

The Riverside County Coroner's Office identified the dead as Scott
Gayle Lawrence, 55, of Cerritos; Paul Luther Carlson, 73, also of
Cerritos; Brandon William Johnson, 24, of Costa Mesa; Anthony Joel
Guzman, 20, of Hesperia; and Earl Smiddy, 58, of Moreno Valley.

Smiddy was crushed in the car dealership.




http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...escollide.html
... One of the planes was a Cessna 172 registered to William A.
Reinke of La Habra, according to aircraft databases. Reached at
his home Sunday night, Reinke declined to say who was flying his
plane or who might have been on board.

The second plane, a Cessna 150, is registered to Air Corona Inc.,
based in Dover, Del. Many plane owners register their aircraft in
Delaware even if they are not based there because of the state's
low taxes.