French planes are crap

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:27:47 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt)
wrote:

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during
the first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406
while inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from
1939-40. The D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the
surrender and was certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of
the time. After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to
the Israelis who racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage
out of the aircraft against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super
Mystere, Vautour, and Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35
and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in
France.

I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the Rafael
easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And it
does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35.

Is it flying, or still grounded? And you would not want to try
ACM with an F-15, F-14, or F-16. Their avionics, weapons,
and airframes are all superior.

We could just JOUST it for an interesting perspective:

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...hter/tech.html


Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export
sales of the F-35.

What export sales?

Look at the partnership agreements signed by the UK, Australia,
Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and
Canada. There are currently contracts for 3002 aircraft with
many more in the negotiation phase.

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:27:47 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt)
wrote:

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during
the first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406
while inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from
1939-40. The D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the
surrender and was certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of
the time. After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to
the Israelis who racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage
out of the aircraft against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super
Mystere, Vautour, and Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35
and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in
France.

I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the Rafael
easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And it
does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35.

Is it flying, or still grounded? And you would not want to try
ACM with an F-15, F-14, or F-16. Their avionics, weapons,
and airframes are all superior.

We could just JOUST it for an interesting perspective:

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...hter/tech.html


Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export
sales of the F-35.

What export sales?

Look at the partnership agreements signed by the UK, Australia,
Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and
Canada. There are currently contracts for 3002 aircraft with
many more in the negotiation phase.

The partnership agreements concern technology transfer and workshare on the
development of the production article. No money has yet transferred hands
for any production aircraft, and NO ORDERS have been made yet. The Bush
administration is even studying canceling the thing in favour of an expanded
Block-60 F-16 purchase and UCAV's - not ouside the bounds of reality,
considering how big the budget defecit has become during the 'war on
terror'.

Get your facts straight.

Matt

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:57:25 -0000, "killfile" wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:27:47 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt)
wrote:

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during
the first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406
while inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from
1939-40. The D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the
surrender and was certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of
the time. After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to
the Israelis who racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage
out of the aircraft against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super
Mystere, Vautour, and Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35
and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in
France.

I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the Rafael
easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And it
does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35.

Is it flying, or still grounded? And you would not want to try
ACM with an F-15, F-14, or F-16. Their avionics, weapons,
and airframes are all superior.

We could just JOUST it for an interesting perspective:

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...hter/tech.html


Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export
sales of the F-35.

What export sales?

Look at the partnership agreements signed by the UK, Australia,
Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and
Canada. There are currently contracts for 3002 aircraft with
many more in the negotiation phase.

The partnership agreements concern technology transfer and workshare on the
development of the production article. No money has yet transferred hands
for any production aircraft, and NO ORDERS have been made yet. The Bush
administration is even studying canceling the thing in favour of an expanded
Block-60 F-16 purchase and UCAV's - not ouside the bounds of reality,
considering how big the budget defecit has become during the 'war on
terror'.

Get your facts straight.

Matt

My facts are straight, the orders are from the US Air Force, Navy,
and Marines. The other countries have options to buy, and
several, including the Brits and Canadians have made verbal
commitments. There are always (in the US, at any rate) fall back
scenarios in the event of major program glitches. There is
no serious talk of canceling the F-35, as no other aircraft
can perform its mission. You do realize it has a STOL
variant? And we can quite easily afford them. You do
not seem to have any idea of the size of US budgets.

Al Minyard

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:57:25 -0000, "killfile"
wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:27:47 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"

wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt)
wrote:

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during
the first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406
while inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from
1939-40. The D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the
surrender and was certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of
the time. After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to
the Israelis who racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage
out of the aircraft against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super
Mystere, Vautour, and Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35
and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in
France.

I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the Rafael
easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And it
does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35.

Is it flying, or still grounded? And you would not want to try
ACM with an F-15, F-14, or F-16. Their avionics, weapons,
and airframes are all superior.

We could just JOUST it for an interesting perspective:

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...hter/tech.html


Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export
sales of the F-35.

What export sales?

Look at the partnership agreements signed by the UK, Australia,
Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and
Canada. There are currently contracts for 3002 aircraft with
many more in the negotiation phase.

The partnership agreements concern technology transfer and workshare on
the
development of the production article. No money has yet transferred hands
for any production aircraft, and NO ORDERS have been made yet. The Bush
administration is even studying canceling the thing in favour of an
expanded
Block-60 F-16 purchase and UCAV's - not ouside the bounds of reality,
considering how big the budget defecit has become during the 'war on
terror'.

Get your facts straight.

Matt

My facts are straight, the orders are from the US Air Force, Navy,
and Marines. The other countries have options to buy, and
several, including the Brits and Canadians have made verbal
commitments. There are always (in the US, at any rate) fall back
scenarios in the event of major program glitches. There is
no serious talk of canceling the F-35, as no other aircraft
can perform its mission. You do realize it has a STOL
variant? And we can quite easily afford them. You do
not seem to have any idea of the size of US budgets.

Al Minyard

So what you're saying is ... there's no export sales.

You are, in fact, admitting you were wrong. Amazing.

Matt

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:11:09 -0000, "killfile" wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message

My facts are straight, the orders are from the US Air Force, Navy,
and Marines. The other countries have options to buy, and
several, including the Brits and Canadians have made verbal
commitments. There are always (in the US, at any rate) fall back
scenarios in the event of major program glitches. There is
no serious talk of canceling the F-35, as no other aircraft
can perform its mission. You do realize it has a STOL
variant? And we can quite easily afford them. You do
not seem to have any idea of the size of US budgets.

Al Minyard

So what you're saying is ... there's no export sales.

You are, in fact, admitting you were wrong. Amazing.

Matt

No, I am saying that there have been no payments. Several
countries are *planning* to purchase the F-35, as it is a
unique and extremely capable aircraft.

Al Minyard

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:11:09 -0000, "killfile"
wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message

My facts are straight, the orders are from the US Air Force, Navy,
and Marines. The other countries have options to buy, and
several, including the Brits and Canadians have made verbal
commitments. There are always (in the US, at any rate) fall back
scenarios in the event of major program glitches. There is
no serious talk of canceling the F-35, as no other aircraft
can perform its mission. You do realize it has a STOL
variant? And we can quite easily afford them. You do
not seem to have any idea of the size of US budgets.

Al Minyard

So what you're saying is ... there's no export sales.

You are, in fact, admitting you were wrong. Amazing.

Matt

No, I am saying that there have been no payments. Several
countries are *planning* to purchase the F-35, as it is a
unique and extremely capable aircraft.

Al Minyard

It's fine to say a country is 'planning' to purchase something, but actually
ordering it is a different matter. the Czech republic was 'planning' to
order Gripens and Austria was 'planning' to order Eurofighters but it
doesn't look like either of those will happen.

There are no orders.

Matt

"killfile" wrote in message
...
"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:11:09 -0000, "killfile"
wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message

My facts are straight, the orders are from the US Air Force, Navy,
and Marines. The other countries have options to buy, and
several, including the Brits and Canadians have made verbal
commitments. There are always (in the US, at any rate) fall back
scenarios in the event of major program glitches. There is
no serious talk of canceling the F-35, as no other aircraft
can perform its mission. You do realize it has a STOL
variant? And we can quite easily afford them. You do
not seem to have any idea of the size of US budgets.

Al Minyard

So what you're saying is ... there's no export sales.

You are, in fact, admitting you were wrong. Amazing.

Matt

No, I am saying that there have been no payments. Several
countries are *planning* to purchase the F-35, as it is a
unique and extremely capable aircraft.

Al Minyard

It's fine to say a country is 'planning' to purchase something, but
actually
ordering it is a different matter. the Czech republic was 'planning' to
order Gripens and Austria was 'planning' to order Eurofighters but it
doesn't look like either of those will happen.

Austria has ordered (12?) Typhoons

"Alan Minyard" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the Rafael
easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And it
does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35.

Is it flying, or still grounded? And you would not want to try
ACM with an F-15, F-14, or F-16. Their avionics, weapons,
and airframes are all superior.



Grounded? The Rafale?? Errr, you're confusing the Rafale with the
Eurofighter. The Rafale never crashed, and wasn't grounded unlike the
Eurofighter.
As for ACM, the Rafale M flew against the Carl Vinson air wing last year:
humiliated the F-14 (I'm sorry to say this as I love the Turkey) and rapidly
disposed of the F-18 that put up a better fight than the F-14, but
eventually gave in. This is for dogfights; BVR simulations were done too but
I don't have reports of them.
If anyone has info on Eagle or Viper vs Rafale mock fights I'd be glad to
hear from them!

--
_________________________________________
Pierre-Henri BARAS

Co-webmaster de French Fleet Air Arm
http://www.ffaa.net
Encyclopédie de l'Aviation sur le web
http://www.aviation-fr.info

Pierre-Henri Baras wrote :

Grounded? The Rafale?? Errr, you're confusing the Rafale with the
Eurofighter. The Rafale never crashed, and wasn't grounded unlike
the Eurofighter.
As for ACM, the Rafale M flew against the Carl Vinson air wing
last year: humiliated the F-14 (I'm sorry to say this as I love
the Turkey) and rapidly disposed of the F-18 that put up a better
fight than the F-14, but eventually gave in.

I don't try anymore to find any logic or truth in Al's posts ...

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:27:47 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
wrote:


Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35
and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in
France.

I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the
Rafael easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And
it does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35.

Is it flying, or still grounded?

It's never been grouned to my knowledge, though I could
be mistaking.

And you would not want to try
ACM with an F-15, F-14, or F-16. Their avionics, weapons,
and airframes are all superior.

That seems unlikely since their basic desing is 30 years old.

I'd take those two 30mms over the Vulcan any day. Choose
between Mica, Magic, Sidewinder, ASRAAM and AMRAAM, or
Apache, AS30L, ALARM, HARM, Maverick, or Exocet/AM39,
Penguin 3 and Harpoon. That will give any US fighter a
good run for its money.


We could just JOUST it for an interesting perspective:

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...hter/tech.html


Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export
sales of the F-35.

What export sales?

Look at the partnership agreements signed by the UK, Australia,
Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and
Canada. There are currently contracts for 3002 aircraft with
many more in the negotiation phase.

Ok, so there haven't actually been any sales yet.

I seem to be missing your point though.



Regards...