Starting a 135 op?

Dan wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
:

On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny wrote:

Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
belly up...

If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
will be ready to live out of the airplane yes, sleep in it for a
week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
you won't destroy the plane which means your family will have to
front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan ...
Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!

denny

Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. Apparently aviation and
successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
why anyone goes into aviation.

I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). I'm trying to plan out how
I might prepare for doing something in aviation.

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. I prefer cross country flights
with a definate destination.

--Dan



I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. As they say the only way to
become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

On Feb 20, 4:40*pm, Marty Shapiro
wrote:
Dan wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
:





On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny wrote:

Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
belly up...

If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
will be ready to live out of the airplane yes, sleep in it for a
week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
you won't destroy the plane which means your family will have to
front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan ...
Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!

denny

Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. *Apparently aviation and
successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
why anyone goes into aviation.

I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). *I'm trying to plan out how
I might prepare for doing something in aviation.

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. *I prefer cross country flights
with a definate destination.

*--Dan

I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. *As they say the only way to
become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Somehow Southwest and Netjets are doing pretty good though, so with
good management it should be possible to make money. Not that I claim
to have the magic bullet of course.

--Dan

On Feb 20, 4:02*pm, Dan wrote:
On Feb 20, 4:40*pm, Marty Shapiro
wrote:





Dan wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
:

On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny wrote:

Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
belly up...

If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
will be ready to live out of the airplane yes, sleep in it for a
week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
you won't destroy the plane which means your family will have to
front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan ...
Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!

denny

Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. *Apparently aviation and
successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
why anyone goes into aviation.

I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). *I'm trying to plan out how
I might prepare for doing something in aviation.

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. *I prefer cross country flights
with a definate destination.

*--Dan

I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. *As they say the only way to
become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Somehow Southwest and Netjets are doing pretty good though, so with
good management it should be possible to make money. Not that I claim
to have the magic bullet of course.

Interesting that Southwest also doesn't have a defined benefit
retirement plan, and instead has a 401K like the rest of us. I'm sure
that helps.

-Robert

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:16:30 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:


Interesting that Southwest also doesn't have a defined benefit
retirement plan, and instead has a 401K like the rest of us. I'm sure
that helps.

Wasn't a good part of it having real cheap fuel by long term options
which have also now expired?

On Feb 20, 6:31*pm, Peter Clark
wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:16:30 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"

wrote:
Interesting that Southwest also doesn't have a defined benefit
retirement plan, and instead has a 401K like the rest of us. I'm sure
that helps.

Wasn't a good part of it having real cheap fuel by long term options
which have also now expired?

I'd say that a good part of it was having management smart enough to
take advantage of real cheap long term fuel options. The options may
have expired, but the minds that charted that course are still there
and they'll find something new to do.

K l e i n

Peter Clark wrote:

Wasn't a good part of it having real cheap fuel by long term options
which have also now expired?

That has helped them make good profits in the last few years, but
Southwest's unparalleled success over the last 30 yrs. has been the result of
exceptional management. Unlike most other airlines, they identified a
market niche (cheap, short haul flights), formulated a plan to serve that
niche at a profit and stuck to the plan. They did not try to grow
themselves into a mega-airline, which has been the downfall of many start up
airlines that had some early successes.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200802/1

On Feb 20, 5:16*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
On Feb 20, 4:02*pm, Dan wrote:





On Feb 20, 4:40*pm, Marty Shapiro
wrote:

Dan wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
:

On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny wrote:

Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
belly up...

If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
will be ready to live out of the airplane yes, sleep in it for a
week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
you won't destroy the plane which means your family will have to
front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan ...
Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!

denny

Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. *Apparently aviation and
successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
why anyone goes into aviation.

I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). *I'm trying to plan out how
I might prepare for doing something in aviation.

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. *I prefer cross country flights
with a definate destination.

*--Dan

I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. *As they say the only way to
become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Somehow Southwest and Netjets are doing pretty good though, so with
good management it should be possible to make money. Not that I claim
to have the magic bullet of course.

Interesting that Southwest also doesn't have a defined benefit
retirement plan, and instead has a 401K like the rest of us. I'm sure
that helps.

-Robert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Virtually no jobs in the corporate world these days have a pension. I
don't feel sorry for the Southwest pilots.

--Dan

On Feb 20, 7:42*pm, Dan wrote:
On Feb 20, 5:16*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:





On Feb 20, 4:02*pm, Dan wrote:

On Feb 20, 4:40*pm, Marty Shapiro
wrote:

Dan wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
:

On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny wrote:

Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
belly up...

If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
will be ready to live out of the airplane yes, sleep in it for a
week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
you won't destroy the plane which means your family will have to
front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan ...
Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!

denny

Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. *Apparently aviation and
successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
why anyone goes into aviation.

I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). *I'm trying to plan out how
I might prepare for doing something in aviation.

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby..
I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. *I prefer cross country flights
with a definate destination.

*--Dan

I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. *As they say the only way to
become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Somehow Southwest and Netjets are doing pretty good though, so with
good management it should be possible to make money. Not that I claim
to have the magic bullet of course.

Interesting that Southwest also doesn't have a defined benefit
retirement plan, and instead has a 401K like the rest of us. I'm sure
that helps.

-Robert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Virtually no jobs in the corporate world these days have a pension. *I
don't feel sorry for the Southwest pilots.

*--Dan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Pension? Don't give me no steeeking pension, give me stock options!