The Differences Between PPLicensing And Learning

In article ,
Jay Maynard wrote:

On 2008-02-28, wrote:
Yes, it is fair to say that pre-solo sim is not helpful and may even
hurt. Much of what is learned in pre-solo and getting to solo (which
is the point of pre-solo) is physical cues and muscle memory. None of
that is recreated in any PC based sim environment.

Don't underestimate the power of muscle memory, too. My ease of flying the
Tecnam Sierra and difficulty transitioning into the Zodiac, both after 15
years out of the cockpit, are directly related to that.

What did you fly in the Old Days(tm)?

I'm asking only because I've been out for 30+ years (Champ/Cherokee/
C-150), and came back in January, where I've been getting refresher
instruction in the Tecnam Sierra (which I like a lot). Almost ready to
wrap up my BFR, too.

In article ,
WJRFlyBoy wrote:

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:56:26 GMT, Steve Foley wrote:

"WJRFlyBoy" wrote in message
...

1) I passed on answering your questions that honestly aren't worth my
effort or the Usenet space.

And I will to the same

plonk

lol Touchy I would say.

Well, you *were* pretty rude. Unless you think that blowing off someone
because they're too stupid to deal with is good manners.

Think about it.

"Deadstick" wrote in message
...

Additionally, the student can experience things in the simulator that
he/she can't or shouldn't do in the actual aircraft. The PC simulator
is, in my opinion, a valuable tool if used correctly.

Therein lies the problem. How does a student know if he's using the tool
correctly?

-c

"gatt" wrote in message
...

"Deadstick" wrote in message
...

Additionally, the student can experience things in the simulator that
he/she can't or shouldn't do in the actual aircraft. The PC simulator
is, in my opinion, a valuable tool if used correctly.

Therein lies the problem. How does a student know if he's using the tool
correctly?

-c


You answered your own question...if he's a student, he's taking instruction.
Otherwise he's just a user or tinkerer.

--
BobF.
Lincoln actually got it right but was way ahead of his time when he said,
"You can have some of you computer working all of the time and all of your
computer working some of the time but..." It was he that said that, wasn't
it?

Deadstick wrote:
On Feb 28, 6:34 am, kontiki wrote:
Except for the purpose of explaining how the COM and NAV radios and
instrumentation works by a CFI, simulator time should be avoided
by pre-solo students. Post solo, other than to experiment with
navigation methods, simulators should be avoided by students also.

By simulators, I am talking about the basic PC based units, not
the multi-million dollar, full motion simulators used to train
commercial pilots. But even they should not be used pre-solo.

I tend to disagree in some ways. I will agree that some students may
make the assumption that the PC simulator is exactly like the real
thing and make the assumption that after mastering the simulator they
can jump into the aircraft and fly it just as well. However, I
believe that the PC simulator can be used to teach basic techniques
and principles such as basic aircraft control, basic aerodynamics, use
and function of instruments, etc. As long as the student understands
that the simulator and the aircraft are different, they can transition
from one to the other and apply what they learned from the simulator
to the actual aircraft.

Additionally, the student can experience things in the simulator that
he/she can't or shouldn't do in the actual aircraft. The PC simulator
is, in my opinion, a valuable tool if used correctly.

I would respectfully disagree with this analysis based on hundreds of
hours spent working with both primary students, flight instructors, and
Microsoft.
Sims have their use, but if used before solo can actually be detrimental
for various reasons, some of them absolutely critical to student progress.
After solo, and when used with the proper supervision, the sims have
their productive side as well.


--
Dudley Henriques

"Dallas" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:43:14 -0500, WJRFlyBoy wrote:

when talking with CFIs, they are geared to quick rather than
thorough.

I personally appreciate that attitude in a CFI considering that time
really
is money in this business... your money. His job is to get you to the
checkride ready to pass and if he's good he'll know exactly what that
takes.


And every instructor I've ever known will be MORE than happy to take your
$30-$40 for any additional training you might elect to take. I'm not aware
of one that would turn down somebody (student, private, commercial etc) who
wants additional training.


-c

Took the words right out of my mouth. I can see a lot of time devoted to
un-learning if everyone followed the OP's method.

Bob Gardner

"gatt" wrote in message
...

"Deadstick" wrote in message
...

Additionally, the student can experience things in the simulator that
he/she can't or shouldn't do in the actual aircraft. The PC simulator
is, in my opinion, a valuable tool if used correctly.

Therein lies the problem. How does a student know if he's using the tool
correctly?

-c

Dudley Henriques wrote:
I would respectfully disagree with this analysis based on hundreds of
hours spent working with both primary students, flight instructors,
and Microsoft.
Sims have their use, but if used before solo can actually be
detrimental for various reasons, some of them absolutely critical to
student progress. After solo, and when used with the proper
supervision, the sims have their productive side as well.

Hmmm. That seems to be a stronger statement about pre-solo use than I've
seen you state in the recent past. Or maybe I'm over-extending "pre-solo"
to include "pre-flight-training" that you didn't intend? That is, if time
is split thusly:

Big Bang - birth - simming - initial flight training - solo - PPL -
death - Big Crunch

Then that order is okay so long as simming and pre-solo flight training
don't overlap? Or you believe simming is _only_ a net positive use after
solo and even then only under supervision? Hmmm.

Otherwise your advice appears to be at odds with what Bruce Williams wrote
in his book "Microsoft Flight Simulator as a Training Aid." That is, while
he too says pre-solo simming _can_ be detrimental, it appears he believes
that is not an immutable issue and lays out some guidelines that he
believes can make pre-flight training use a net positive. But I guess that
is not surprising, given that he wrote a book on the subject!

(There seem to be anecdotes posted by people who have felt use of MS Flight
Simulator helped them get a leg-up in their training and others who felt MS
FS actually slowed them down.)

"Bob Gardner" wrote:
Took the words right out of my mouth. I can see a lot of time devoted
to un-learning if everyone followed the OP's method.

Hmmm. There are now several books that attempt to explain how to make best
use of a tool like MS Flight Simulator. Would anyone argue that the
prescriptions in those books wont help because it's a lost cause ("no
substitute for being in a real cockpit")?

Next thing you know, people will be claiming that no book can help guide
you in radio communications ("no substitute for using a real radio"), so
buying and reading such books is a waste money and time. *COUGH*


Bob Gardner

"gatt" wrote in message
...

"Deadstick" wrote in message

...

Additionally, the student can experience things in the simulator
that he/she can't or shouldn't do in the actual aircraft. The PC
simulator is, in my opinion, a valuable tool if used correctly.

Therein lies the problem. How does a student know if he's using the
tool correctly?

-c

(There seem to be anecdotes posted by people who have felt use of MS Flight
Simulator helped them get a leg-up in their training and others who felt MS
FS actually slowed them down.)

It all depends on your approach to flying. If you think a pilot's
primary instruments are the Artificial Horizon, the ASI, the tachometer
and a myriade of other gauges, then a sim will probably help. But if you
believe that a pilot's primary instruments are the natural horizon, his
butt and the feel of the controls, then a sim will most definitely slow
down a student's progress and may even bring it to a halt.