Wow

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in
:

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887
&filename=phpOltUWB
.jpg

Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick
it straight" when they land, like this guy did, show em this...



Bertie
I just sent this out this afternoon to our human factors people
as an example of how deeply a pilot has to fly into a problem
before realizing it isn't going to solve using existing control
authority. Absolutely amazing! This guy is on the way to a memo
from the Chief Pilot's office fairly soon I would imagine.
Glad they made it out of there.

Well, he doesn't appear to have made any effort towards putting
the wing down at all. Not his fault.He was obviously never taught
how to do a crosswind landing properly. You'd be amazed at how
many airline pilots beleive that this is the way to do it...
Mostly, they get away with it. The crosswind doesn't appear to be
all that bad. From the drift angle, I'd reckon the max compnenet
to be under thirty knots and steady. Well within the airplane's
capability. He wasn't realy in trouble until the flare.

Bertie

Bertie
I don't have the official wind figures, but I would make the wind
offset with gust factor well outside his capabilities.
Doesn't look like it to me. Most moderns are demonstrated at 40
knots. Even the older ones can do 30 or 35 with no problem, and
that;'s just the demonstrated. The 757 is easy, and I mean really
easy, in winds approaching 40, although it's easy to get a PIO
going with the ailerons in turbulence in it. If the other poster's
info is correct, it shouldn;t have come to what it did. I dont see
any effort on the pilot's part to put the right wing down at all.
Having said that, it's a 'bus and it might not have allowd the
pilot to do what he wanted to.
In any case, crossposting his wasn't to make the crw look foolish.
I just thought the video neatly illustrated the dynamics of a
crosswind landing gone wrong very nicely, whatever caused it. A lot
of people use a similar technique and, close to the limit, it will
end up looking pretty much like this...




Bertie

I'm sure your right. After all, you look at this stuff in heavies
all day long. I landed a DC8 once as a guest of the airline (a
charter op). Man, what a handful THAT thing was!! :-)

I read this guy's approach as bad from around the middle marker (or
where it would be) inbound. Looked like he flattened it out too high
which had to cost him some airspeed and maneuvering energy. I agree
on the wing. Didn't look good to me either.


No, looks good all the way to the runway as far as i can see, He
seems to be tracking the runway alright. One burios thing they do in
modern busses is to set the vref into the magic boxes and that
commands a constant groundspeed during the approach. Sounded crazy to
me when I first heard of it, but the way it works is that the
airplane automatically bleeds off speed as the wind diminishes during
descent. even hand flown, the flight director would have been
commanding this speed. I t has nothing to do with the way thr
airplane was flown in the last few seconds, but it shows the kind of
precise guidance they were getting to that point. He may have been
doing an auto approach, in fact, which could expalin a lot as the
transition form autoflight to manual can be messy, particularly in
wind. Never flown a DC8, but with those old tab controls, it was
probably a million miles away from the fighters and Pitts' you flew!
You'd find the 757 more to your liking,. It flies like a light twin
and the ailerons are VERY responsive. In fact in that compilation
video I posted you can see one going around and rocking like crazy.
That's a PIO.


Bertie

The approach I shot in the DC8 was into Fairbanks Alaska. Very windy
that day and I flew the approach manually....well, manually on a
Collins FD109 FD anyway. You're right about the difference in
airplanes. I had flown the bird up there from the left seat so was
fairly familiar with the control response, but of course that was at
cruise mach. When I slowed the damn thing down for the approach, the
lead time to correct changed accordingly and it was a guessing game
each time I corrected. I cheated a little and ruddered it rather than
use bank that seemed hard to control to me. Anyway, I got it down in
one piece without bending it. Had the Chief Pilot of the line in the
right seat of course, but he had already told me that unless I got it
critical somehow it was all mine to solve.
Great airplane the DC8. I'll tell you the truth though. I was damn
glad to feel those mains on the pavement. Those guys knew me pretty
well and I didn't want to embarrass myself in their big bad airplane
:-))

You were obviously well able to keep it inside his comfort zone. Don't
forget , neophytes get to fly these things all the time, so they're well
used to teaching people on the job. It's one jet I realy would liked to
have gotten a chance to fly. It's very different from almost everything
else flying in a lot of ways.

About PIO; you should see the trouble in pitch a novice can get into
in a T38.
It can get so bad you have to let go and let it phugoid out . There's
absolutely no way a first timer could counter it. If it happens low
enough on approach it can spell REAL trouble.
Great airplane though. Makes me wish I could do it again :-)

Someting else I'd love to try! I never found the sensitive ailerons to
be a problem. Most of the problem, as you know is the deah grip on the
stick. I've started them off in turbulence, but dampened them out just
as quick by relaxing my wrist ( there you go ken, an opeing for a gay
lame)



Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in
:

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887
&filename=phpOltUWB
.jpg

Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick
it straight" when they land, like this guy did, show em this...



Bertie
I just sent this out this afternoon to our human factors people
as an example of how deeply a pilot has to fly into a problem
before realizing it isn't going to solve using existing control
authority. Absolutely amazing! This guy is on the way to a memo
from the Chief Pilot's office fairly soon I would imagine.
Glad they made it out of there.

Well, he doesn't appear to have made any effort towards putting
the wing down at all. Not his fault.He was obviously never taught
how to do a crosswind landing properly. You'd be amazed at how
many airline pilots beleive that this is the way to do it...
Mostly, they get away with it. The crosswind doesn't appear to be
all that bad. From the drift angle, I'd reckon the max compnenet
to be under thirty knots and steady. Well within the airplane's
capability. He wasn't realy in trouble until the flare.

Bertie

Bertie
I don't have the official wind figures, but I would make the wind
offset with gust factor well outside his capabilities.
Doesn't look like it to me. Most moderns are demonstrated at 40
knots. Even the older ones can do 30 or 35 with no problem, and
that;'s just the demonstrated. The 757 is easy, and I mean really
easy, in winds approaching 40, although it's easy to get a PIO
going with the ailerons in turbulence in it. If the other poster's
info is correct, it shouldn;t have come to what it did. I dont see
any effort on the pilot's part to put the right wing down at all.
Having said that, it's a 'bus and it might not have allowd the
pilot to do what he wanted to.
In any case, crossposting his wasn't to make the crw look foolish.
I just thought the video neatly illustrated the dynamics of a
crosswind landing gone wrong very nicely, whatever caused it. A lot
of people use a similar technique and, close to the limit, it will
end up looking pretty much like this...




Bertie

I'm sure your right. After all, you look at this stuff in heavies
all day long. I landed a DC8 once as a guest of the airline (a
charter op). Man, what a handful THAT thing was!! :-)

I read this guy's approach as bad from around the middle marker (or
where it would be) inbound. Looked like he flattened it out too high
which had to cost him some airspeed and maneuvering energy. I agree
on the wing. Didn't look good to me either.

No, looks good all the way to the runway as far as i can see, He
seems to be tracking the runway alright. One burios thing they do in
modern busses is to set the vref into the magic boxes and that
commands a constant groundspeed during the approach. Sounded crazy to
me when I first heard of it, but the way it works is that the
airplane automatically bleeds off speed as the wind diminishes during
descent. even hand flown, the flight director would have been
commanding this speed. I t has nothing to do with the way thr
airplane was flown in the last few seconds, but it shows the kind of
precise guidance they were getting to that point. He may have been
doing an auto approach, in fact, which could expalin a lot as the
transition form autoflight to manual can be messy, particularly in
wind. Never flown a DC8, but with those old tab controls, it was
probably a million miles away from the fighters and Pitts' you flew!
You'd find the 757 more to your liking,. It flies like a light twin
and the ailerons are VERY responsive. In fact in that compilation
video I posted you can see one going around and rocking like crazy.
That's a PIO.


Bertie

The approach I shot in the DC8 was into Fairbanks Alaska. Very windy
that day and I flew the approach manually....well, manually on a
Collins FD109 FD anyway. You're right about the difference in
airplanes. I had flown the bird up there from the left seat so was
fairly familiar with the control response, but of course that was at
cruise mach. When I slowed the damn thing down for the approach, the
lead time to correct changed accordingly and it was a guessing game
each time I corrected. I cheated a little and ruddered it rather than
use bank that seemed hard to control to me. Anyway, I got it down in
one piece without bending it. Had the Chief Pilot of the line in the
right seat of course, but he had already told me that unless I got it
critical somehow it was all mine to solve.
Great airplane the DC8. I'll tell you the truth though. I was damn
glad to feel those mains on the pavement. Those guys knew me pretty
well and I didn't want to embarrass myself in their big bad airplane
:-))

You were obviously well able to keep it inside his comfort zone. Don't
forget , neophytes get to fly these things all the time, so they're well
used to teaching people on the job. It's one jet I realy would liked to
have gotten a chance to fly. It's very different from almost everything
else flying in a lot of ways.
About PIO; you should see the trouble in pitch a novice can get into
in a T38.
It can get so bad you have to let go and let it phugoid out . There's
absolutely no way a first timer could counter it. If it happens low
enough on approach it can spell REAL trouble.
Great airplane though. Makes me wish I could do it again :-)

Someting else I'd love to try! I never found the sensitive ailerons to
be a problem. Most of the problem, as you know is the deah grip on the
stick. I've started them off in turbulence, but dampened them out just
as quick by relaxing my wrist ( there you go ken, an opeing for a gay
lame)



Bertie


The 8 was great as long as you led the thing by about 3 seconds in roll.
It seemed like a drunken whale to me for the first few turns. Then I got
it down pretty well and led it correctly.
I guess the new stuff is much improved as you say. Sounds like fun
anyway :-)



The Pitts is a good airplane to teach sensitive control in pitch. I
always had them put their thumb on the back of the stick and just their
index finger in the front and fly it that way for a whole hour. After
doing that, they could fly with the wrist relaxed a bit better.
The first time a newbie climbs into a Pitts and tries a takeoff, I
always had them hold it on a bit longer before rotation. The extra speed
would really come into play when they rotated. With any luck at all, you
could get at least 200 feet out of it before they knew what hit them.
I'd have my hand in back of the stick to catch it just in case :-))
One lesson like that was usually enough to solve the PIO issue.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in
:

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887
&filename=phpOltUWB
.jpg

Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick
it straight" when they land, like this guy did, show em
this...



Bertie
I just sent this out this afternoon to our human factors
people as an example of how deeply a pilot has to fly into a
problem before realizing it isn't going to solve using
existing control authority. Absolutely amazing! This guy is on
the way to a memo from the Chief Pilot's office fairly soon I
would imagine. Glad they made it out of there.

Well, he doesn't appear to have made any effort towards putting
the wing down at all. Not his fault.He was obviously never
taught how to do a crosswind landing properly. You'd be amazed
at how many airline pilots beleive that this is the way to do
it... Mostly, they get away with it. The crosswind doesn't
appear to be all that bad. From the drift angle, I'd reckon the
max compnenet to be under thirty knots and steady. Well within
the airplane's capability. He wasn't realy in trouble until the
flare.

Bertie

Bertie
I don't have the official wind figures, but I would make the
wind offset with gust factor well outside his capabilities.
Doesn't look like it to me. Most moderns are demonstrated at 40
knots. Even the older ones can do 30 or 35 with no problem, and
that;'s just the demonstrated. The 757 is easy, and I mean really
easy, in winds approaching 40, although it's easy to get a PIO
going with the ailerons in turbulence in it. If the other
poster's info is correct, it shouldn;t have come to what it did.
I dont see any effort on the pilot's part to put the right wing
down at all. Having said that, it's a 'bus and it might not have
allowd the pilot to do what he wanted to.
In any case, crossposting his wasn't to make the crw look
foolish. I just thought the video neatly illustrated the dynamics
of a crosswind landing gone wrong very nicely, whatever caused
it. A lot of people use a similar technique and, close to the
limit, it will end up looking pretty much like this...




Bertie

I'm sure your right. After all, you look at this stuff in heavies
all day long. I landed a DC8 once as a guest of the airline (a
charter op). Man, what a handful THAT thing was!! :-)

I read this guy's approach as bad from around the middle marker
(or where it would be) inbound. Looked like he flattened it out
too high which had to cost him some airspeed and maneuvering
energy. I agree on the wing. Didn't look good to me either.

No, looks good all the way to the runway as far as i can see, He
seems to be tracking the runway alright. One burios thing they do
in modern busses is to set the vref into the magic boxes and that
commands a constant groundspeed during the approach. Sounded crazy
to me when I first heard of it, but the way it works is that the
airplane automatically bleeds off speed as the wind diminishes
during descent. even hand flown, the flight director would have
been commanding this speed. I t has nothing to do with the way thr
airplane was flown in the last few seconds, but it shows the kind
of precise guidance they were getting to that point. He may have
been doing an auto approach, in fact, which could expalin a lot as
the transition form autoflight to manual can be messy, particularly
in wind. Never flown a DC8, but with those old tab controls, it was
probably a million miles away from the fighters and Pitts' you
flew! You'd find the 757 more to your liking,. It flies like a
light twin and the ailerons are VERY responsive. In fact in that
compilation video I posted you can see one going around and rocking
like crazy. That's a PIO.


Bertie

The approach I shot in the DC8 was into Fairbanks Alaska. Very windy
that day and I flew the approach manually....well, manually on a
Collins FD109 FD anyway. You're right about the difference in
airplanes. I had flown the bird up there from the left seat so was
fairly familiar with the control response, but of course that was at
cruise mach. When I slowed the damn thing down for the approach, the
lead time to correct changed accordingly and it was a guessing game
each time I corrected. I cheated a little and ruddered it rather
than use bank that seemed hard to control to me. Anyway, I got it
down in one piece without bending it. Had the Chief Pilot of the
line in the right seat of course, but he had already told me that
unless I got it critical somehow it was all mine to solve.
Great airplane the DC8. I'll tell you the truth though. I was damn
glad to feel those mains on the pavement. Those guys knew me pretty
well and I didn't want to embarrass myself in their big bad airplane
:-))

You were obviously well able to keep it inside his comfort zone.
Don't forget , neophytes get to fly these things all the time, so
they're well used to teaching people on the job. It's one jet I realy
would liked to have gotten a chance to fly. It's very different from
almost everything else flying in a lot of ways.
About PIO; you should see the trouble in pitch a novice can get into
in a T38.
It can get so bad you have to let go and let it phugoid out .
There's absolutely no way a first timer could counter it. If it
happens low enough on approach it can spell REAL trouble.
Great airplane though. Makes me wish I could do it again :-)

Someting else I'd love to try! I never found the sensitive ailerons
to be a problem. Most of the problem, as you know is the deah grip on
the stick. I've started them off in turbulence, but dampened them out
just as quick by relaxing my wrist ( there you go ken, an opeing for
a gay lame)



Bertie


The 8 was great as long as you led the thing by about 3 seconds in
roll. It seemed like a drunken whale to me for the first few turns.
Then I got it down pretty well and led it correctly.
I guess the new stuff is much improved as you say. Sounds like fun
anyway :-)



Oh I meant the 757, sorry. The 8 uses servo tasbs AFAIK wth some
hydraulic boosting as well.

The Pitts is a good airplane to teach sensitive control in pitch. I
always had them put their thumb on the back of the stick and just
their index finger in the front and fly it that way for a whole hour.
After doing that, they could fly with the wrist relaxed a bit better.
The first time a newbie climbs into a Pitts and tries a takeoff, I
always had them hold it on a bit longer before rotation. The extra
speed would really come into play when they rotated. With any luck at
all, you could get at least 200 feet out of it before they knew what
hit them. I'd have my hand in back of the stick to catch it just in
case :-)) One lesson like that was usually enough to solve the PIO
issue.


I flew tow of theose an S1C homebuilt and an S2. IO found them OK if a
little skittish. I didn't get a lot of time in either and found th
elight controls a lot to think about doing aerobatics.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in
:

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887
&filename=phpOltUWB
.jpg

Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick
it straight" when they land, like this guy did, show em
this...



Bertie
I just sent this out this afternoon to our human factors
people as an example of how deeply a pilot has to fly into a
problem before realizing it isn't going to solve using
existing control authority. Absolutely amazing! This guy is on
the way to a memo from the Chief Pilot's office fairly soon I
would imagine. Glad they made it out of there.

Well, he doesn't appear to have made any effort towards putting
the wing down at all. Not his fault.He was obviously never
taught how to do a crosswind landing properly. You'd be amazed
at how many airline pilots beleive that this is the way to do
it... Mostly, they get away with it. The crosswind doesn't
appear to be all that bad. From the drift angle, I'd reckon the
max compnenet to be under thirty knots and steady. Well within
the airplane's capability. He wasn't realy in trouble until the
flare.

Bertie

Bertie
I don't have the official wind figures, but I would make the
wind offset with gust factor well outside his capabilities.
Doesn't look like it to me. Most moderns are demonstrated at 40
knots. Even the older ones can do 30 or 35 with no problem, and
that;'s just the demonstrated. The 757 is easy, and I mean really
easy, in winds approaching 40, although it's easy to get a PIO
going with the ailerons in turbulence in it. If the other
poster's info is correct, it shouldn;t have come to what it did.
I dont see any effort on the pilot's part to put the right wing
down at all. Having said that, it's a 'bus and it might not have
allowd the pilot to do what he wanted to.
In any case, crossposting his wasn't to make the crw look
foolish. I just thought the video neatly illustrated the dynamics
of a crosswind landing gone wrong very nicely, whatever caused
it. A lot of people use a similar technique and, close to the
limit, it will end up looking pretty much like this...




Bertie

I'm sure your right. After all, you look at this stuff in heavies
all day long. I landed a DC8 once as a guest of the airline (a
charter op). Man, what a handful THAT thing was!! :-)

I read this guy's approach as bad from around the middle marker
(or where it would be) inbound. Looked like he flattened it out
too high which had to cost him some airspeed and maneuvering
energy. I agree on the wing. Didn't look good to me either.

No, looks good all the way to the runway as far as i can see, He
seems to be tracking the runway alright. One burios thing they do
in modern busses is to set the vref into the magic boxes and that
commands a constant groundspeed during the approach. Sounded crazy
to me when I first heard of it, but the way it works is that the
airplane automatically bleeds off speed as the wind diminishes
during descent. even hand flown, the flight director would have
been commanding this speed. I t has nothing to do with the way thr
airplane was flown in the last few seconds, but it shows the kind
of precise guidance they were getting to that point. He may have
been doing an auto approach, in fact, which could expalin a lot as
the transition form autoflight to manual can be messy, particularly
in wind. Never flown a DC8, but with those old tab controls, it was
probably a million miles away from the fighters and Pitts' you
flew! You'd find the 757 more to your liking,. It flies like a
light twin and the ailerons are VERY responsive. In fact in that
compilation video I posted you can see one going around and rocking
like crazy. That's a PIO.


Bertie

The approach I shot in the DC8 was into Fairbanks Alaska. Very windy
that day and I flew the approach manually....well, manually on a
Collins FD109 FD anyway. You're right about the difference in
airplanes. I had flown the bird up there from the left seat so was
fairly familiar with the control response, but of course that was at
cruise mach. When I slowed the damn thing down for the approach, the
lead time to correct changed accordingly and it was a guessing game
each time I corrected. I cheated a little and ruddered it rather
than use bank that seemed hard to control to me. Anyway, I got it
down in one piece without bending it. Had the Chief Pilot of the
line in the right seat of course, but he had already told me that
unless I got it critical somehow it was all mine to solve.
Great airplane the DC8. I'll tell you the truth though. I was damn
glad to feel those mains on the pavement. Those guys knew me pretty
well and I didn't want to embarrass myself in their big bad airplane
:-))
You were obviously well able to keep it inside his comfort zone.
Don't forget , neophytes get to fly these things all the time, so
they're well used to teaching people on the job. It's one jet I realy
would liked to have gotten a chance to fly. It's very different from
almost everything else flying in a lot of ways.
About PIO; you should see the trouble in pitch a novice can get into
in a T38.
It can get so bad you have to let go and let it phugoid out .
There's absolutely no way a first timer could counter it. If it
happens low enough on approach it can spell REAL trouble.
Great airplane though. Makes me wish I could do it again :-)
Someting else I'd love to try! I never found the sensitive ailerons
to be a problem. Most of the problem, as you know is the deah grip on
the stick. I've started them off in turbulence, but dampened them out
just as quick by relaxing my wrist ( there you go ken, an opeing for
a gay lame)



Bertie
The 8 was great as long as you led the thing by about 3 seconds in
roll. It seemed like a drunken whale to me for the first few turns.
Then I got it down pretty well and led it correctly.
I guess the new stuff is much improved as you say. Sounds like fun
anyway :-)



Oh I meant the 757, sorry. The 8 uses servo tasbs AFAIK wth some
hydraulic boosting as well.
The Pitts is a good airplane to teach sensitive control in pitch. I
always had them put their thumb on the back of the stick and just
their index finger in the front and fly it that way for a whole hour.
After doing that, they could fly with the wrist relaxed a bit better.
The first time a newbie climbs into a Pitts and tries a takeoff, I
always had them hold it on a bit longer before rotation. The extra
speed would really come into play when they rotated. With any luck at
all, you could get at least 200 feet out of it before they knew what
hit them. I'd have my hand in back of the stick to catch it just in
case :-)) One lesson like that was usually enough to solve the PIO
issue.


I flew tow of theose an S1C homebuilt and an S2. IO found them OK if a
little skittish. I didn't get a lot of time in either and found th
elight controls a lot to think about doing aerobatics.


Bertie

In the single hole round wing you'll notice PIO graphically the first
time you try a point roll with a sharp stop. The natural tendency is to
be sharp on the first 90 knife. What usually happens to the novice is
that it stops on a dime but just the slightest bit of forward stick
starts a real bad PIO that gets progressively worse the more you try and
stop it.
The result can really shake you up if you don't let go. I've seen those
things go to 3 negative and 5 positive as quick as you can say "Holy
Pitts Batman!!" :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...

In the single hole round wing you'll notice PIO graphically the first time
you try a point roll with a sharp stop. The natural tendency is to be
sharp on the first 90 knife. What usually happens to the novice is that it
stops on a dime but just the slightest bit of forward stick starts a real
bad PIO that gets progressively worse the more you try and stop it.
The result can really shake you up if you don't let go. I've seen those
things go to 3 negative and 5 positive as quick as you can say "Holy Pitts
Batman!!" :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Reminds me of my last biannual in the RV. A very experienced stick offered
to do the bianuual for free, so off we went. I wanted to do some unusal
attitude recovery work, so closed my eyes and turned it over to him. I
hadn't bothered to brief him on the responsiveness of the RV, and had
AssUMed that with his Pitts experience he'd be fine in the RV. Before I
grabbed the stick, he bounced both our noggins off the canopy twice and the
telltale on the G-meter read +3/-2. He did better the second time around.
;-)

KB

Kyle Boatright wrote:

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...

In the single hole round wing you'll notice PIO graphically the first
time you try a point roll with a sharp stop. The natural tendency is
to be sharp on the first 90 knife. What usually happens to the novice
is that it stops on a dime but just the slightest bit of forward stick
starts a real bad PIO that gets progressively worse the more you try
and stop it.
The result can really shake you up if you don't let go. I've seen
those things go to 3 negative and 5 positive as quick as you can say
"Holy Pitts Batman!!" :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Reminds me of my last biannual in the RV. A very experienced stick
offered to do the bianuual for free, so off we went. I wanted to do
some unusal attitude recovery work, so closed my eyes and turned it over
to him. I hadn't bothered to brief him on the responsiveness of the RV,
and had AssUMed that with his Pitts experience he'd be fine in the RV.
Before I grabbed the stick, he bounced both our noggins off the canopy
twice and the telltale on the G-meter read +3/-2. He did better the
second time around. ;-)

KB

Once you get them past that first one, it usually gets better :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in
:

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near
crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887
&filename=phpOltUWB
.jpg

Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just
"kick
it straight" when they land, like this guy did, show em
this...



Bertie
I just sent this out this afternoon to our human factors
people as an example of how deeply a pilot has to fly into a
problem before realizing it isn't going to solve using
existing control authority. Absolutely amazing! This guy is
on
the way to a memo from the Chief Pilot's office fairly soon
I
would imagine. Glad they made it out of there.

Well, he doesn't appear to have made any effort towards
putting
the wing down at all. Not his fault.He was obviously never
taught how to do a crosswind landing properly. You'd be
amazed
at how many airline pilots beleive that this is the way to do
it... Mostly, they get away with it. The crosswind doesn't
appear to be all that bad. From the drift angle, I'd reckon
the
max compnenet to be under thirty knots and steady. Well
within
the airplane's capability. He wasn't realy in trouble until
the
flare.

Bertie

Bertie
I don't have the official wind figures, but I would make the
wind offset with gust factor well outside his capabilities.
Doesn't look like it to me. Most moderns are demonstrated at 40
knots. Even the older ones can do 30 or 35 with no problem, and
that;'s just the demonstrated. The 757 is easy, and I mean
really
easy, in winds approaching 40, although it's easy to get a PIO
going with the ailerons in turbulence in it. If the other
poster's info is correct, it shouldn;t have come to what it
did.
I dont see any effort on the pilot's part to put the right wing
down at all. Having said that, it's a 'bus and it might not
have
allowd the pilot to do what he wanted to.
In any case, crossposting his wasn't to make the crw look
foolish. I just thought the video neatly illustrated the
dynamics
of a crosswind landing gone wrong very nicely, whatever caused
it. A lot of people use a similar technique and, close to the
limit, it will end up looking pretty much like this...




Bertie

I'm sure your right. After all, you look at this stuff in
heavies
all day long. I landed a DC8 once as a guest of the airline (a
charter op). Man, what a handful THAT thing was!! :-)

I read this guy's approach as bad from around the middle marker
(or where it would be) inbound. Looked like he flattened it out
too high which had to cost him some airspeed and maneuvering
energy. I agree on the wing. Didn't look good to me either.

No, looks good all the way to the runway as far as i can see, He
seems to be tracking the runway alright. One burios thing they do
in modern busses is to set the vref into the magic boxes and that
commands a constant groundspeed during the approach. Sounded
crazy
to me when I first heard of it, but the way it works is that the
airplane automatically bleeds off speed as the wind diminishes
during descent. even hand flown, the flight director would have
been commanding this speed. I t has nothing to do with the way
thr
airplane was flown in the last few seconds, but it shows the kind
of precise guidance they were getting to that point. He may have
been doing an auto approach, in fact, which could expalin a lot
as
the transition form autoflight to manual can be messy,
particularly
in wind. Never flown a DC8, but with those old tab controls, it
was
probably a million miles away from the fighters and Pitts' you
flew! You'd find the 757 more to your liking,. It flies like a
light twin and the ailerons are VERY responsive. In fact in that
compilation video I posted you can see one going around and
rocking
like crazy. That's a PIO.


Bertie

The approach I shot in the DC8 was into Fairbanks Alaska. Very
windy
that day and I flew the approach manually....well, manually on a
Collins FD109 FD anyway. You're right about the difference in
airplanes. I had flown the bird up there from the left seat so was
fairly familiar with the control response, but of course that was
at
cruise mach. When I slowed the damn thing down for the approach,
the
lead time to correct changed accordingly and it was a guessing
game
each time I corrected. I cheated a little and ruddered it rather
than use bank that seemed hard to control to me. Anyway, I got it
down in one piece without bending it. Had the Chief Pilot of the
line in the right seat of course, but he had already told me that
unless I got it critical somehow it was all mine to solve.
Great airplane the DC8. I'll tell you the truth though. I was damn
glad to feel those mains on the pavement. Those guys knew me
pretty
well and I didn't want to embarrass myself in their big bad
airplane
:-))
You were obviously well able to keep it inside his comfort zone.
Don't forget , neophytes get to fly these things all the time, so
they're well used to teaching people on the job. It's one jet I
realy
would liked to have gotten a chance to fly. It's very different
from
almost everything else flying in a lot of ways.
About PIO; you should see the trouble in pitch a novice can get
into
in a T38.
It can get so bad you have to let go and let it phugoid out .
There's absolutely no way a first timer could counter it. If it
happens low enough on approach it can spell REAL trouble.
Great airplane though. Makes me wish I could do it again :-)
Someting else I'd love to try! I never found the sensitive ailerons
to be a problem. Most of the problem, as you know is the deah grip
on
the stick. I've started them off in turbulence, but dampened them
out
just as quick by relaxing my wrist ( there you go ken, an opeing
for
a gay lame)



Bertie
The 8 was great as long as you led the thing by about 3 seconds in
roll. It seemed like a drunken whale to me for the first few turns.
Then I got it down pretty well and led it correctly.
I guess the new stuff is much improved as you say. Sounds like fun
anyway :-)



Oh I meant the 757, sorry. The 8 uses servo tasbs AFAIK wth some
hydraulic boosting as well.
The Pitts is a good airplane to teach sensitive control in pitch. I
always had them put their thumb on the back of the stick and just
their index finger in the front and fly it that way for a whole
hour.
After doing that, they could fly with the wrist relaxed a bit
better.
The first time a newbie climbs into a Pitts and tries a takeoff, I
always had them hold it on a bit longer before rotation. The extra
speed would really come into play when they rotated. With any luck
at
all, you could get at least 200 feet out of it before they knew what
hit them. I'd have my hand in back of the stick to catch it just in
case :-)) One lesson like that was usually enough to solve the PIO
issue.


I flew tow of theose an S1C homebuilt and an S2. IO found them OK if
a
little skittish. I didn't get a lot of time in either and found th
elight controls a lot to think about doing aerobatics.


Bertie

In the single hole round wing you'll notice PIO graphically the first
time you try a point roll with a sharp stop. The natural tendency is
to
be sharp on the first 90 knife. What usually happens to the novice is
that it stops on a dime but just the slightest bit of forward stick
starts a real bad PIO that gets progressively worse the more you
tryand
stop it.
The result can really shake you up if you don't let go. I've seen
those
things go to 3 negative and 5 positive as quick as you can say "Holy
Pitts Batman!!" :-))


Yeah, I hurt my neck the first time I flew it. The elevators had almost
no feel to them at all. In fact, after that flight the owner decided to
install a combo anti servo/trim on it as he wasn't crazy about the lack
of feel either. It was by far the scariest airplane i'd flown at the
time and the approach speeds were just insane. I was terrified I'd
groundloop the thing and the owner builder would kill me if I survived
that!
The S2 was OK, bu tI really didn;t care for it. I only flew it a bit and
the owner wouldn't let me land it and he groundlooped it near the end of
the landing roll! he kept insisting I must have interfered with the
controls, but I hadn't touched a thing! Feet flat on the floor..
I'd kind of like to have one ot fly, but I think I'd prefer a Great
Lakes or a Jungmann, to be honest.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in
:

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near
crash:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887
&filename=phpOltUWB
.jpg

Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just
"kick
it straight" when they land, like this guy did, show em
this...



Bertie
I just sent this out this afternoon to our human factors
people as an example of how deeply a pilot has to fly into a
problem before realizing it isn't going to solve using
existing control authority. Absolutely amazing! This guy is
on
the way to a memo from the Chief Pilot's office fairly soon
I
would imagine. Glad they made it out of there.

Well, he doesn't appear to have made any effort towards
putting
the wing down at all. Not his fault.He was obviously never
taught how to do a crosswind landing properly. You'd be
amazed
at how many airline pilots beleive that this is the way to do
it... Mostly, they get away with it. The crosswind doesn't
appear to be all that bad. From the drift angle, I'd reckon
the
max compnenet to be under thirty knots and steady. Well
within
the airplane's capability. He wasn't realy in trouble until
the
flare.

Bertie

Bertie
I don't have the official wind figures, but I would make the
wind offset with gust factor well outside his capabilities.
Doesn't look like it to me. Most moderns are demonstrated at 40
knots. Even the older ones can do 30 or 35 with no problem, and
that;'s just the demonstrated. The 757 is easy, and I mean
really
easy, in winds approaching 40, although it's easy to get a PIO
going with the ailerons in turbulence in it. If the other
poster's info is correct, it shouldn;t have come to what it
did.
I dont see any effort on the pilot's part to put the right wing
down at all. Having said that, it's a 'bus and it might not
have
allowd the pilot to do what he wanted to.
In any case, crossposting his wasn't to make the crw look
foolish. I just thought the video neatly illustrated the
dynamics
of a crosswind landing gone wrong very nicely, whatever caused
it. A lot of people use a similar technique and, close to the
limit, it will end up looking pretty much like this...




Bertie

I'm sure your right. After all, you look at this stuff in
heavies
all day long. I landed a DC8 once as a guest of the airline (a
charter op). Man, what a handful THAT thing was!! :-)

I read this guy's approach as bad from around the middle marker
(or where it would be) inbound. Looked like he flattened it out
too high which had to cost him some airspeed and maneuvering
energy. I agree on the wing. Didn't look good to me either.

No, looks good all the way to the runway as far as i can see, He
seems to be tracking the runway alright. One burios thing they do
in modern busses is to set the vref into the magic boxes and that
commands a constant groundspeed during the approach. Sounded
crazy
to me when I first heard of it, but the way it works is that the
airplane automatically bleeds off speed as the wind diminishes
during descent. even hand flown, the flight director would have
been commanding this speed. I t has nothing to do with the way
thr
airplane was flown in the last few seconds, but it shows the kind
of precise guidance they were getting to that point. He may have
been doing an auto approach, in fact, which could expalin a lot
as
the transition form autoflight to manual can be messy,
particularly
in wind. Never flown a DC8, but with those old tab controls, it
was
probably a million miles away from the fighters and Pitts' you
flew! You'd find the 757 more to your liking,. It flies like a
light twin and the ailerons are VERY responsive. In fact in that
compilation video I posted you can see one going around and
rocking
like crazy. That's a PIO.


Bertie

The approach I shot in the DC8 was into Fairbanks Alaska. Very
windy
that day and I flew the approach manually....well, manually on a
Collins FD109 FD anyway. You're right about the difference in
airplanes. I had flown the bird up there from the left seat so was
fairly familiar with the control response, but of course that was
at
cruise mach. When I slowed the damn thing down for the approach,
the
lead time to correct changed accordingly and it was a guessing
game
each time I corrected. I cheated a little and ruddered it rather
than use bank that seemed hard to control to me. Anyway, I got it
down in one piece without bending it. Had the Chief Pilot of the
line in the right seat of course, but he had already told me that
unless I got it critical somehow it was all mine to solve.
Great airplane the DC8. I'll tell you the truth though. I was damn
glad to feel those mains on the pavement. Those guys knew me
pretty
well and I didn't want to embarrass myself in their big bad
airplane
:-))
You were obviously well able to keep it inside his comfort zone.
Don't forget , neophytes get to fly these things all the time, so
they're well used to teaching people on the job. It's one jet I
realy
would liked to have gotten a chance to fly. It's very different
from
almost everything else flying in a lot of ways.
About PIO; you should see the trouble in pitch a novice can get
into
in a T38.
It can get so bad you have to let go and let it phugoid out .
There's absolutely no way a first timer could counter it. If it
happens low enough on approach it can spell REAL trouble.
Great airplane though. Makes me wish I could do it again :-)
Someting else I'd love to try! I never found the sensitive ailerons
to be a problem. Most of the problem, as you know is the deah grip
on
the stick. I've started them off in turbulence, but dampened them
out
just as quick by relaxing my wrist ( there you go ken, an opeing
for
a gay lame)



Bertie
The 8 was great as long as you led the thing by about 3 seconds in
roll. It seemed like a drunken whale to me for the first few turns.
Then I got it down pretty well and led it correctly.
I guess the new stuff is much improved as you say. Sounds like fun
anyway :-)


Oh I meant the 757, sorry. The 8 uses servo tasbs AFAIK wth some
hydraulic boosting as well.
The Pitts is a good airplane to teach sensitive control in pitch. I
always had them put their thumb on the back of the stick and just
their index finger in the front and fly it that way for a whole
hour.
After doing that, they could fly with the wrist relaxed a bit
better.
The first time a newbie climbs into a Pitts and tries a takeoff, I
always had them hold it on a bit longer before rotation. The extra
speed would really come into play when they rotated. With any luck
at
all, you could get at least 200 feet out of it before they knew what
hit them. I'd have my hand in back of the stick to catch it just in
case :-)) One lesson like that was usually enough to solve the PIO
issue.

I flew tow of theose an S1C homebuilt and an S2. IO found them OK if
a
little skittish. I didn't get a lot of time in either and found th
elight controls a lot to think about doing aerobatics.


Bertie

In the single hole round wing you'll notice PIO graphically the first
time you try a point roll with a sharp stop. The natural tendency is
to
be sharp on the first 90 knife. What usually happens to the novice is
that it stops on a dime but just the slightest bit of forward stick
starts a real bad PIO that gets progressively worse the more you
tryand
stop it.
The result can really shake you up if you don't let go. I've seen
those
things go to 3 negative and 5 positive as quick as you can say "Holy
Pitts Batman!!" :-))


Yeah, I hurt my neck the first time I flew it. The elevators had almost
no feel to them at all. In fact, after that flight the owner decided to
install a combo anti servo/trim on it as he wasn't crazy about the lack
of feel either. It was by far the scariest airplane i'd flown at the
time and the approach speeds were just insane. I was terrified I'd
groundloop the thing and the owner builder would kill me if I survived
that!
The S2 was OK, bu tI really didn;t care for it. I only flew it a bit and
the owner wouldn't let me land it and he groundlooped it near the end of
the landing roll! he kept insisting I must have interfered with the
controls, but I hadn't touched a thing! Feet flat on the floor..
I'd kind of like to have one ot fly, but I think I'd prefer a Great
Lakes or a Jungmann, to be honest.


Bertie

Jungmeister for sure :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in
:

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near
crash:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887
&filename=phpOltUWB
.jpg

Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just
"kick
it straight" when they land, like this guy did, show em
this...



Bertie
I just sent this out this afternoon to our human factors
people as an example of how deeply a pilot has to fly into
a problem before realizing it isn't going to solve using
existing control authority. Absolutely amazing! This guy
is
on
the way to a memo from the Chief Pilot's office fairly
soon
I
would imagine. Glad they made it out of there.

Well, he doesn't appear to have made any effort towards
putting
the wing down at all. Not his fault.He was obviously never
taught how to do a crosswind landing properly. You'd be
amazed
at how many airline pilots beleive that this is the way to
do it... Mostly, they get away with it. The crosswind
doesn't appear to be all that bad. From the drift angle,
I'd reckon
the
max compnenet to be under thirty knots and steady. Well
within
the airplane's capability. He wasn't realy in trouble until
the
flare.

Bertie

Bertie
I don't have the official wind figures, but I would make the
wind offset with gust factor well outside his capabilities.
Doesn't look like it to me. Most moderns are demonstrated at
40 knots. Even the older ones can do 30 or 35 with no
problem, and that;'s just the demonstrated. The 757 is easy,
and I mean
really
easy, in winds approaching 40, although it's easy to get a
PIO going with the ailerons in turbulence in it. If the other
poster's info is correct, it shouldn;t have come to what it
did.
I dont see any effort on the pilot's part to put the right
wing down at all. Having said that, it's a 'bus and it might
not
have
allowd the pilot to do what he wanted to.
In any case, crossposting his wasn't to make the crw look
foolish. I just thought the video neatly illustrated the
dynamics
of a crosswind landing gone wrong very nicely, whatever
caused it. A lot of people use a similar technique and, close
to the limit, it will end up looking pretty much like this...




Bertie

I'm sure your right. After all, you look at this stuff in
heavies
all day long. I landed a DC8 once as a guest of the airline (a
charter op). Man, what a handful THAT thing was!! :-)

I read this guy's approach as bad from around the middle
marker (or where it would be) inbound. Looked like he
flattened it out too high which had to cost him some airspeed
and maneuvering energy. I agree on the wing. Didn't look good
to me either.

No, looks good all the way to the runway as far as i can see,
He seems to be tracking the runway alright. One burios thing
they do in modern busses is to set the vref into the magic
boxes and that commands a constant groundspeed during the
approach. Sounded
crazy
to me when I first heard of it, but the way it works is that
the airplane automatically bleeds off speed as the wind
diminishes during descent. even hand flown, the flight director
would have been commanding this speed. I t has nothing to do
with the way
thr
airplane was flown in the last few seconds, but it shows the
kind of precise guidance they were getting to that point. He
may have been doing an auto approach, in fact, which could
expalin a lot
as
the transition form autoflight to manual can be messy,
particularly
in wind. Never flown a DC8, but with those old tab controls, it
was
probably a million miles away from the fighters and Pitts' you
flew! You'd find the 757 more to your liking,. It flies like a
light twin and the ailerons are VERY responsive. In fact in
that compilation video I posted you can see one going around
and
rocking
like crazy. That's a PIO.


Bertie

The approach I shot in the DC8 was into Fairbanks Alaska. Very
windy
that day and I flew the approach manually....well, manually on a
Collins FD109 FD anyway. You're right about the difference in
airplanes. I had flown the bird up there from the left seat so
was fairly familiar with the control response, but of course
that was
at
cruise mach. When I slowed the damn thing down for the approach,
the
lead time to correct changed accordingly and it was a guessing
game
each time I corrected. I cheated a little and ruddered it rather
than use bank that seemed hard to control to me. Anyway, I got
it down in one piece without bending it. Had the Chief Pilot of
the line in the right seat of course, but he had already told me
that unless I got it critical somehow it was all mine to solve.
Great airplane the DC8. I'll tell you the truth though. I was
damn glad to feel those mains on the pavement. Those guys knew
me
pretty
well and I didn't want to embarrass myself in their big bad
airplane
:-))
You were obviously well able to keep it inside his comfort zone.
Don't forget , neophytes get to fly these things all the time, so
they're well used to teaching people on the job. It's one jet I
realy
would liked to have gotten a chance to fly. It's very different
from
almost everything else flying in a lot of ways.
About PIO; you should see the trouble in pitch a novice can get
into
in a T38.
It can get so bad you have to let go and let it phugoid out .
There's absolutely no way a first timer could counter it. If it
happens low enough on approach it can spell REAL trouble.
Great airplane though. Makes me wish I could do it again :-)
Someting else I'd love to try! I never found the sensitive
ailerons to be a problem. Most of the problem, as you know is the
deah grip
on
the stick. I've started them off in turbulence, but dampened them
out
just as quick by relaxing my wrist ( there you go ken, an opeing
for
a gay lame)



Bertie
The 8 was great as long as you led the thing by about 3 seconds in
roll. It seemed like a drunken whale to me for the first few
turns. Then I got it down pretty well and led it correctly.
I guess the new stuff is much improved as you say. Sounds like fun
anyway :-)


Oh I meant the 757, sorry. The 8 uses servo tasbs AFAIK wth some
hydraulic boosting as well.
The Pitts is a good airplane to teach sensitive control in pitch.
I always had them put their thumb on the back of the stick and
just their index finger in the front and fly it that way for a
whole
hour.
After doing that, they could fly with the wrist relaxed a bit
better.
The first time a newbie climbs into a Pitts and tries a takeoff, I
always had them hold it on a bit longer before rotation. The extra
speed would really come into play when they rotated. With any luck
at
all, you could get at least 200 feet out of it before they knew
what hit them. I'd have my hand in back of the stick to catch it
just in case :-)) One lesson like that was usually enough to solve
the PIO issue.

I flew tow of theose an S1C homebuilt and an S2. IO found them OK
if
a
little skittish. I didn't get a lot of time in either and found th
elight controls a lot to think about doing aerobatics.


Bertie

In the single hole round wing you'll notice PIO graphically the
first time you try a point roll with a sharp stop. The natural
tendency is
to
be sharp on the first 90 knife. What usually happens to the novice
is that it stops on a dime but just the slightest bit of forward
stick starts a real bad PIO that gets progressively worse the more
you
tryand
stop it.
The result can really shake you up if you don't let go. I've seen
those
things go to 3 negative and 5 positive as quick as you can say "Holy
Pitts Batman!!" :-))


Yeah, I hurt my neck the first time I flew it. The elevators had
almost no feel to them at all. In fact, after that flight the owner
decided to install a combo anti servo/trim on it as he wasn't crazy
about the lack of feel either. It was by far the scariest airplane
i'd flown at the time and the approach speeds were just insane. I was
terrified I'd groundloop the thing and the owner builder would kill
me if I survived that!
The S2 was OK, bu tI really didn;t care for it. I only flew it a bit
and the owner wouldn't let me land it and he groundlooped it near the
end of the landing roll! he kept insisting I must have interfered
with the controls, but I hadn't touched a thing! Feet flat on the
floor.. I'd kind of like to have one ot fly, but I think I'd prefer a
Great Lakes or a Jungmann, to be honest.


Bertie

Jungmeister for sure :-))


Yeah, I know someone who had one before I met him. ******* sold it so I
never got to fly it!
just one of the prettiest airplanes ever.


Bertie