Teaching Incremental Flaps in the Pattern

On Mar 5, 4:22*am, " wrote:
I just read an interesting argument by Lew Gauge in his E-185 Bonanza
book.

Some background -- the older Bonanzas (straight 35) have a "Flap"
switch. There's no increments unless you stop the motor as the flaps
are being dropped. Apparently it's hard on that design to start-stop
the motor.

Lew said there's no reason to teach incremental flaps in small
airplanes -- and that multiple flap applications just add to the
workload with no advantage-- apply 10 degrees, trim, apply 10 more,
trim, etc.

His argument is that if the sequence is always the same -- gear down,
trim, flaps down, trim -- the approaches will be consistent and reduce
the likelihood of a gear-up landing (since the descent profile with
15" MP and full flaps gear up is very close to 15"+ full flaps + gear
down).

The more I think about this the more it makes sense, except in the
partial flap case (though an argument can be made that there's no
reason to ever go partial -- but that's another topic).

I'm sure this will be contentious, but isn't that the point?


I think in a 172R Vfe for 10 flaps is 110, and 85 for more. So maybe
stages make sense, in that case?

Cheers

On Mar 4, 10:27 pm, WingFlaps wrote:
On Mar 5, 4:22 am, " wrote:



I just read an interesting argument by Lew Gauge in his E-185 Bonanza
book.

Some background -- the older Bonanzas (straight 35) have a "Flap"
switch. There's no increments unless you stop the motor as the flaps
are being dropped. Apparently it's hard on that design to start-stop
the motor.

Lew said there's no reason to teach incremental flaps in small
airplanes -- and that multiple flap applications just add to the
workload with no advantage-- apply 10 degrees, trim, apply 10 more,
trim, etc.

His argument is that if the sequence is always the same -- gear down,
trim, flaps down, trim -- the approaches will be consistent and reduce
the likelihood of a gear-up landing (since the descent profile with
15" MP and full flaps gear up is very close to 15"+ full flaps + gear
down).

The more I think about this the more it makes sense, except in the
partial flap case (though an argument can be made that there's no
reason to ever go partial -- but that's another topic).

I'm sure this will be contentious, but isn't that the point?

I think in a 172R Vfe for 10 flaps is 110, and 85 for more. So maybe
stages make sense, in that case?

Cheers

Perhaps, but I think it High Vfe can lead to sloppy piloting (so does
high Vle). Instead of planning the approach and entering the pattern
at the proper airspeed, we depend on the flaps and gear to slow us
down.

This is hard on the gear and can be downright ruinous in an airplane
that is not so forgiving.

Dan

My Apache does not have fixed flap positions, and full down flap
results in such an exteme nose down attitude that it makes the
passengers think you are dive bombing the airport I kinda like it...
As a result I routinely use partial flaps... A little bit on downwind
to help slow the fatboy to 110 indicated, a bit more on base to give
me 100 on the speedo, and final depends on the amount of wind and the
angle to the runway... There is a flap position indicator on the
panel but it is just this side of useless - besides being 3 feet away
on the other side of the cockpit... I look over my shoulder as I lower
the flap and set it by eyeball and feel... On a dark night I set it by
the feel and experience...

I agree that students and low time pilots need fixed flap settings at
specific points int he pattern...

denny

On Mar 5, 7:51 am, Denny wrote:
My Apache does not have fixed flap positions, and full down flap
results in such an exteme nose down attitude that it makes the
passengers think you are dive bombing the airport I kinda like it...
As a result I routinely use partial flaps... A little bit on downwind
to help slow the fatboy to 110 indicated, a bit more on base to give
me 100 on the speedo, and final depends on the amount of wind and the
angle to the runway... There is a flap position indicator on the
panel but it is just this side of useless - besides being 3 feet away
on the other side of the cockpit... I look over my shoulder as I lower
the flap and set it by eyeball and feel... On a dark night I set it by
the feel and experience...

I agree that students and low time pilots need fixed flap settings at
specific points int he pattern...

denny

Twins are a little different as you have the approach speed argument
to settle first -- do you want enough speed/energy to maintain Vmc? If
so, full flaps will likely require a steep descent as you're
describing.

Besides, if you're flying a twin you're beyond student pilot days and
thus are working on art -- adapting the rules to fit the situation.


Dan

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 05:02:34 -0800 (PST), Dan
wrote:

On Mar 5, 7:51 am, Denny wrote:
My Apache does not have fixed flap positions, and full down flap
results in such an exteme nose down attitude that it makes the
passengers think you are dive bombing the airport I kinda like it...
As a result I routinely use partial flaps... A little bit on downwind
to help slow the fatboy to 110 indicated, a bit more on base to give
me 100 on the speedo, and final depends on the amount of wind and the
angle to the runway... There is a flap position indicator on the
panel but it is just this side of useless - besides being 3 feet away
on the other side of the cockpit... I look over my shoulder as I lower
the flap and set it by eyeball and feel... On a dark night I set it by
the feel and experience...

I agree that students and low time pilots need fixed flap settings at
specific points int he pattern...

denny

Twins are a little different as you have the approach speed argument
to settle first -- do you want enough speed/energy to maintain Vmc? If
so, full flaps will likely require a steep descent as you're
describing.

Besides, if you're flying a twin you're beyond student pilot days and
thus are working on art -- adapting the rules to fit the situation.

I would hope students are too. At least well before the checkride. My
instructors had me weaned off the stabilized pattern before they let
me solo. Good thing too.




Dan


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com