Slips and skids

On Mar 16, 9:38*am, William Hung wrote:
I have heard definitions for both, but I'm still confused. *Anyone
care to elaborate?


In a skid the ball is deflected to the outside of the turn and in a
slip it's to the inside. Since you "step on the ball" with the rudder,
it foillows that a skid occurs when there is too much yaw in the
direction of turn (like a car rear end breaking away) and a slip when
there is not enough.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

On Mar 15, 7:49*pm, WingFlaps wrote:
On Mar 16, 9:38*am, William Hung wrote:

I have heard definitions for both, but I'm still confused. *Anyone
care to elaborate?

In a skid the ball is deflected to the outside of the turn and in a
slip it's to the inside. Since you "step on the ball" with the rudder,
it foillows that a skid occurs when there is too much yaw in the
direction of turn (like a car rear end breaking away) and a slip when
there is not enough.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Heh.

Except when the control system is misrigged like a plane I flew
recently. In order to get a coordinated turn, I had to give "top"
rudder in a turn. That's wrong.

Of course the actual rudder must have been bottom, but, it was bad.

If you want a great explanation (and a GREAT) book on flying, get Rich
Stowell's "Emergency Maneuver Training". It has nice drawings
illusatrating rudder and aileron positions in both slip and skid. Plus
an explanation about why your life depends on knowing the difference
when you're in the pattern or otherwise low to the ground and at
relative high AoA.

On Mar 15, 9:23 pm, wrote:

Except when the control system is misrigged like a plane I flew
recently. In order to get a coordinated turn, I had to give "top"
rudder in a turn. That's wrong.

Is that the one in which I suggested a broken rudder bar spring?
Anything come of that?

Dan

On Mar 16, 2:42*pm, wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:23 pm, wrote:

Except when the control system is misrigged like a plane I flew
recently. In order to get a coordinated turn, I had to give "top"
rudder in a turn. That's wrong.

* * Is that the one in which I suggested a broken rudder bar spring?
Anything come of that?

* * * Dan

Yeah, I think so. Another person also emailed me private and said the
same.

The chief pilot and other instructors at the FBO got an email from me.
Never heard anything back. Maybe they checked it out and decided I was
wrong; or maybe I found a problem and they don't want to comment on it
in a traceable way. I think I'll switch to their 172, rather than fly
that 150.

On the other hand maybe they have fixed it and I just don't know about
it.

Let's see what is it that you are experiencing. Before flight with the
plane sitting on level ground (at least as much as you can tell). Is the
ball centered? As you taxi and make small heading changes, does the ball
move freely in the raceway? In the practice area. Slow to 60 Kts, pitch
up and add full power, maintain 60 kts. You should immediately notice the
ball go right and you will need right rudder to center the ball. Keep the
plane from changing heading. Be sure to keep the wings level. Now notice
as you enter into a left turn, you DO NOT need to step on the left rudder
(you only maintain enough left rudder pressure to keep slack out of the
cable system) until you have released all the pressure from the right
rudder, then as you increase bank further you can add left rudder. In fact
you MIGHT not need left rudder at all. Keep the ball centered all the time.
Is that what you are seeing?

Now, In a glide situation, things should be more symmetrical. Lower the
nose, reduce power to say 1200 rpm, maintain 60 kts. As you bank right and
left the rudder pressures required to keep the ball centered each way should
be about the same. Do you see this effect? Please report if you know, or
try it the next time you go out.

--
Regards, BobF.
wrote in message
...
On Mar 16, 2:42 pm, wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:23 pm, wrote:

Except when the control system is misrigged like a plane I flew
recently. In order to get a coordinated turn, I had to give "top"
rudder in a turn. That's wrong.

Is that the one in which I suggested a broken rudder bar spring?
Anything come of that?

Dan

Yeah, I think so. Another person also emailed me private and said the
same.

The chief pilot and other instructors at the FBO got an email from me.
Never heard anything back. Maybe they checked it out and decided I was
wrong; or maybe I found a problem and they don't want to comment on it
in a traceable way. I think I'll switch to their 172, rather than fly
that 150.

On the other hand maybe they have fixed it and I just don't know about
it.

On Mar 16, 6:03*pm, "Bob F." wrote:
Let's see what is it that you are experiencing. *Before flight with the
plane sitting on level ground (at least as much as you can tell). *Is the
ball centered? *As you taxi and make small heading changes, does the ball
move freely in the raceway? * In the practice area. *Slow to 60 Kts, pitch
up and add full power, maintain 60 kts. *You should immediately notice the
ball go right and you will need right rudder to center the ball. *Keep the
plane from changing heading. *Be sure to keep the wings level. *Now notice
as you enter into a left turn, you DO NOT need to step on the left rudder
(you only maintain enough left rudder pressure to keep slack out of the
cable system) until you have released all the pressure from the right
rudder, then as you increase bank further you can add left rudder. *In fact
you MIGHT not need left rudder at all. *Keep the ball centered all the time.
Is that what you are seeing?

I do understand the scenario you are describing as letting the p-
factor and torque supply the yaw movement instead of the rudder.

Now, *In a glide situation, *things should be more symmetrical. *Lower the
nose, reduce power to say 1200 rpm, maintain 60 kts. *As you bank right and
left the rudder pressures required to keep the ball centered each way should
be about the same. *Do you see this effect? *Please report if you know, or
try it the next time you go out.


The situation I experienced was this:

1) With moderate to low power in cruise, wings level, the ball
indicates skid unless right rudder is applied.
2) Turning left, idle power, level or descending, requires pretty
substantial right rudder to overcome skid. If you use any left rudder
at all, the ball is way out of center.

The airplane is a C150. I took my checkride in it, and it's behavior
also threw off the DE who was demonstrating how he liked to handle
approaches. Standard left hand pattern, each turn was a pretty wild
skid, even for him. At the time I didn't yet understand what was going
on.

Before my checkride I spent most of my hours in a C152 which behaved
as you are describing -- ie, normally -- in low power, without p-
factor & torque interfering, rudder pressure same for both turns.
However next time (if ever) I choose to fly that C150 again I'll try
out what you suggest, along with some things some others have brought
up.

wrote in message
...
On Mar 16, 6:03 pm, "Bob F." wrote:
Let's see what is it that you are experiencing. Before flight with the
plane sitting on level ground (at least as much as you can tell). Is the
ball centered? As you taxi and make small heading changes, does the ball
move freely in the raceway? In the practice area. Slow to 60 Kts, pitch
up and add full power, maintain 60 kts. You should immediately notice the
ball go right and you will need right rudder to center the ball. Keep the
plane from changing heading. Be sure to keep the wings level. Now notice
as you enter into a left turn, you DO NOT need to step on the left rudder
(you only maintain enough left rudder pressure to keep slack out of the
cable system) until you have released all the pressure from the right
rudder, then as you increase bank further you can add left rudder. In fact
you MIGHT not need left rudder at all. Keep the ball centered all the
time.
Is that what you are seeing?

I do understand the scenario you are describing as letting the p-
factor and torque supply the yaw movement instead of the rudder.

Now, In a glide situation, things should be more symmetrical. Lower the
nose, reduce power to say 1200 rpm, maintain 60 kts. As you bank right and
left the rudder pressures required to keep the ball centered each way
should
be about the same. Do you see this effect? Please report if you know, or
try it the next time you go out.


The situation I experienced was this:

1) With moderate to low power in cruise, wings level, the ball
indicates skid unless right rudder is applied.
2) Turning left, idle power, level or descending, requires pretty
substantial right rudder to overcome skid. If you use any left rudder
at all, the ball is way out of center.

ok, this sounds like a little manual bend in the rudder trim tab should do
it. Most schoold don't like their renters to deal with it, however. And
unfortunately, this adjustment is good only for a particular configuration.
Piper's have a nice rudder trim to help out. This situation is not tool
unusual. I've climbed into many an airplane with rigging not precise. You
learn to recognize and deal with it.

The airplane is a C150. I took my checkride in it, and it's behavior
also threw off the DE who was demonstrating how he liked to handle
approaches. Standard left hand pattern, each turn was a pretty wild
skid, even for him. At the time I didn't yet understand what was going
on.

Before my checkride I spent most of my hours in a C152 which behaved
as you are describing -- ie, normally -- in low power, without p-
factor & torque interfering, rudder pressure same for both turns.
However next time (if ever) I choose to fly that C150 again I'll try
out what you suggest, along with some things some others have brought
up.

ok, I'm glad to hear you understand it all. This won't be the last time
you run into a airplane that's slightly out of rig. Some worse than others.
I just wanted to make sure you weren't expecting too much from the
technology these days.
--
Regards, BobF.