gun discharge in cockpit.

On Mar 24, 8:35 pm, Roger wrote:

3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.

My wife's is always ready to use. That is whey after sticking my

"Ready to use" is meant to be interpreted in context. A concealed
carry handgun is loaded because it may be used at any time. Therefore
it is being "used" as it is being carried.

Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety, and, if the

And how pray tell do you do this with a model 12 trap gun or Glock
9mm?

The Glock safety is a trigger safety, period. The is no manual safety,
thus no safety to engage/disengage. So keep your damn finger off the
trigger and thereby avoid disengaging the safety.

Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.

Minding and intending have little to do with each other.
If some one broke into our home in the middle of the night I would
deeply regret the resutls of my intentions.

No kidding. If you haven't worked through the scenarios beforehand,
you'll lose. The preps certainly have no compunction about offing you.

And ignore the old saw about "Dragging the body into the house." You
have heard of forensics?

Best plan is to determine the extent of legal use of deadly force in
your jurisdiction and then plan to that contingency.

Careful what you shoot at , it may shoot back.

Then be fast and accurate.

Don't try to lecture me on firearms, Roger. I have more ten times more
hours on ranges than you have hours in your Deb.

Dan Mc

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:56:49 -0700 (PDT), Dan
wrote:

On Mar 24, 8:35 pm, Roger wrote:

3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.

My wife's is always ready to use. That is whey after sticking my

"Ready to use" is meant to be interpreted in context. A concealed
carry handgun is loaded because it may be used at any time. Therefore
it is being "used" as it is being carried.

Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety, and, if the

And how pray tell do you do this with a model 12 trap gun or Glock
9mm?

The Glock safety is a trigger safety, period. The is no manual safety,
thus no safety to engage/disengage. So keep your damn finger off the
trigger and thereby avoid disengaging the safety.

Although considered a safety the problem is it's not a true safety in
the sense of preventing an accidental firing. (Unlike the 1911 which
blocks the firing pin) If you drop it and something hits the trigger
from the front it'll fire and don't go sticking it in your belt.:-))


Bottom line -- only point it at things you don't mind killing.

Minding and intending have little to do with each other.
If some one broke into our home in the middle of the night I would
deeply regret the resutls of my intentions.

No kidding. If you haven't worked through the scenarios beforehand,
you'll lose. The preps certainly have no compunction about offing you.



Best plan is to determine the extent of legal use of deadly force in
your jurisdiction and then plan to that contingency.

Self defense is the only option in MI. Protection of property is not.
At night you only need fear for your life. You are still going to have
to explain as does every officer. At least you no longer have to
prove you exhausted all avenues of escape.


Careful what you shoot at , it may shoot back.

Then be fast and accurate.
I'm not faster than a ricochet

Don't try to lecture me on firearms, Roger. I have more ten times more

And where was I doing that?
That is one of the problems with Usenet. We reply in first person and
it sounds like a lecture.

hours on ranges than you have hours in your Deb.

I've only seen one AD on a trap range and I've been around a very long
time. It went off when the action closed on a semi auto. (don't
remember if it was a Remington 1100 or Winchester 1400). Hands were
clear of the trigger guard and barrel down range. Could have been a
high primer... who knows. Scared the guy with the shotgun more than
any one else. There was an AD at the MI State trap shoot one year.
Not sure of the details, but the weather IIRC was light rain, the
guy with the shot gun closed the action and dropped the thing either
when mounting it to his shoulder of closing the action. It went off
when it hit the ground. Unfortunately it landed with the barrel
pointed to the rear. Fortunately it was in the mud and although it
blasted a guy in the back the dirt took up a lot of the power. The
only guns I can think of that would pivot like that when closing would
be a single or double barrel but as I said, I wasn't there.

Now the old Winchester predecessor of the model 12 (don't remember the
model number but it had an open hammer) those were notorious for going
off when closing the action. They also didn't have a disconnector.

Roger (K8RI)
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mar 26, 1:49 am, Roger wrote:

The Glock safety is a trigger safety, period. The is no manual safety,
thus no safety to engage/disengage. So keep your damn finger off the
trigger and thereby avoid disengaging the safety.

Although considered a safety the problem is it's not a true safety in
the sense of preventing an accidental firing. (Unlike the 1911 which
blocks the firing pin) If you drop it and something hits the trigger
from the front it'll fire and don't go sticking it in your belt.:-))

By "true safety" I suppose you mean a separate switch that blocks the
action in some way (There is no safety designed, manufactured, or sold
that "prevents accidental firing" -- or at least that had better be
your attitude while handling firearms).

That's simply defining 'safety" too narrowly. Even the 1911 has a grip
safety.

The Glock trigger safety has been proven in various field tests and in
daily use by the FBI, NYPD, DEA, and about 60% of all Law Enforcement
agencies in the US.

If you think about it, there's no better place for a safety -- the
only time there should be 3-7 lbs of pressure pulling back directly on
that trigger is when you want to fire. An no -- it doesn't go off if
you drop it, it catches on your belt, etc, etc etc. If it does you're
the victim of your own carelessness.

Anyone who carries a firearm in their belt without a holster is asking
for trouble.

Self defense is the only option in MI. Protection of property is not.
At night you only need fear for your life. You are still going to have
to explain as does every officer. At least you no longer have to
prove you exhausted all avenues of escape.

You're confirming my statement that you should "determine the extent
of legal use of deadly force for your jurisdiction..." And that
includes townships. Just because the state law provides some
definition of "self defense" doesn't mean your township or city
doesn't have more restrictive or more loosely defined laws.

Once you've figured out what the rules are, rehearse your actions
mentally and from time to time physically ("Should I turn on a light?
Use a Flashlight? Stand at the top of the stairs?") so that when you
hear something at 3 AM you can act as you planned in your woozy,
startled state.

The worst thing you can do is follow Uncle Ned's advice to shoot the
guy as he runs away and drag him into the house.

In nearly all jurisdictions in the United States, an intruder in your
house at night warrants the use of deadly force. Also nearly universal
is that you can't shoot an old lady who cut you off on the turnpike
(Texas is exempt, I think).

Bottom line -- learn the law before you have to explain your actions
in court. If you own or carry a firearm for self defense, you'd better
be prepared to deal with the consequences.


Careful what you shoot at , it may shoot back.

Then be fast and accurate.

I'm not faster than a ricochet

Ridiculous.

There's not an item in my (and I'm sure your) house that will cause a
direct ricochet of the typical expanding self-defense round -- unless
you have a huge collection of Battleship steel cuttings hanging on
your walls.

And where was I doing that?
That is one of the problems with Usenet. We reply in first person and
it sounds like a lecture.

Please forgive my misinterpretation.


Dan Mc

On Mar 26, 8:32 am, Clark wrote:

As designed the 1911 & 1911A1 do not have firing pin blocks. As far as I know
only the Model 80 Colt 1911 has a firing pin block. There may be/probably are
other pistols based on the 1911 design that have firing pin blocks but do not
count on any 1911 form pistol to have a firing pin block.


I think you're right (though the last time I tore down a 1911 was
1990).

They are fine pistols, I just can't feel the same attachment so many
do (to the point of veneration).

Maybe it's due to so many awful, old, worn issue versions I fired.



Dan Mc

Dan wrote:

Maybe it's due to so many awful, old, worn issue versions I fired.

Dan Mc


That's probably it. Stop by a local gunshop and check out a Kimber. It
is real hard to believe it's the same design.

On Mar 26, 10:09 am, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote:
Dan wrote:
Maybe it's due to so many awful, old, worn issue versions I fired.

Dan Mc

That's probably it. Stop by a local gunshop and check out a Kimber. It
is real hard to believe it's the same design.

Those are very nice -- Springfield Armory, Para Ordnace, even Smith &
Wesson are in the 1911 game.

My personal, totally biased preference is a Sig 229 in 9mm -- lots of
rounds, plenty of punch, cheap practice ammo, flawless feed, solid
feel, perfect machining, compact size --a really, really nice pistol.

The .40 is a decent compromise, but the more I shoot, the more I
realize the 9mm cartridge is probably the best overall compromise
handgun round. Keep in mind -- a handgun is something you use to fight
your way to your long gun.

I don't plan on plinking wild drugged up tribesmen, so a 45 just
doesn't fit my mission profile.

H&Ks are nice, but I don't have much expereince with those.


Dan Mc

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 06:15:35 -0700 (PDT), Dan
wrote:

On Mar 26, 8:32 am, Clark wrote:

As designed the 1911 & 1911A1 do not have firing pin blocks. As far as I know
only the Model 80 Colt 1911 has a firing pin block. There may be/probably are
other pistols based on the 1911 design that have firing pin blocks but do not
count on any 1911 form pistol to have a firing pin block.


I think you're right (though the last time I tore down a 1911 was
1990).

They are fine pistols, I just can't feel the same attachment so many
do (to the point of veneration).

Maybe it's due to so many awful, old, worn issue versions I fired.



Dan Mc
*******************************************

Dan Mc

I'm one who is attached to the 45.

I started shooting it in 1941, in the military, and shot expert every
time I qualified until I retired in 1972. This included the range guns
that sounded like a bunch of rocks in a tin can when they were shaken.

After I retired, I purchased a new 45 and have it as a home protection
gun.

My procedure is to remove the magazine and lock the slide open. Then
visually inspect the barrel to see that it is empty. I then close the
slide and pointing toward the roof I snap the trigger. I then put the
magazine back in the handle and gun back in my bed side table. No
rounds are left in barrel.

If I were to hear someone breaking into my house I would pick up gun
and jack the slide, putting a round in barrel and slide in battery and
gun cocked.

If needed I would then be able to fire the whole magazine of rounds. I
use frangible bullets so that they will not penetrate a standard wall.

When gun is hot, I keep my trigger finger outside the trigger guard
and along side the side of the gun until I plan on firing.

After going hot and I need to unload gun, I go through the same
procedure to make it cold, clean if fired and set up again in bedside
table.

This is a never change procedure and I feel very comfortable with the
safety of it having used it for years.

Big John

On Mar 26, 11:54 pm, Big John wrote:
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 06:15:35 -0700 (PDT), Dan
wrote:



On Mar 26, 8:32 am, Clark wrote:

As designed the 1911 & 1911A1 do not have firing pin blocks. As far as I know
only the Model 80 Colt 1911 has a firing pin block. There may be/probably are
other pistols based on the 1911 design that have firing pin blocks but do not
count on any 1911 form pistol to have a firing pin block.

I think you're right (though the last time I tore down a 1911 was
1990).

They are fine pistols, I just can't feel the same attachment so many
do (to the point of veneration).

Maybe it's due to so many awful, old, worn issue versions I fired.

Dan Mc

*******************************************

Dan Mc

I'm one who is attached to the 45.

I started shooting it in 1941, in the military, and shot expert every
time I qualified until I retired in 1972. This included the range guns
that sounded like a bunch of rocks in a tin can when they were shaken.

After I retired, I purchased a new 45 and have it as a home protection
gun.

My procedure is to remove the magazine and lock the slide open. Then
visually inspect the barrel to see that it is empty. I then close the
slide and pointing toward the roof I snap the trigger. I then put the
magazine back in the handle and gun back in my bed side table. No
rounds are left in barrel.

If I were to hear someone breaking into my house I would pick up gun
and jack the slide, putting a round in barrel and slide in battery and
gun cocked.

If needed I would then be able to fire the whole magazine of rounds. I
use frangible bullets so that they will not penetrate a standard wall.

When gun is hot, I keep my trigger finger outside the trigger guard
and along side the side of the gun until I plan on firing.

After going hot and I need to unload gun, I go through the same
procedure to make it cold, clean if fired and set up again in bedside
table.

This is a never change procedure and I feel very comfortable with the
safety of it having used it for years.

Big John

Big John,

The 45 is notorious for the rattling sound because the slide to frame
fit, the barrel, and the barrel bushing were made intentionally loose
so that the pistol would feed and the action would work even if gummed
up with dirt, etc. When the slide is forward the pistol tightens up
(or should!).

Pistol qualification ranges changed over the years until the latest
incarnations ("Combat Pistol" i.e. Pop up range).

On these ranges the targets were so close you could throw an empty
magazine and score a knockdown.

The Army (don't know about the other services) really downplayed
pistol skills except for competition shooters. As an Armor officer I
was issued a sidearm with the warning "if you gotta use this you are
in deep sh**."

As an Infantry Company Commander carrying a sidearm marked me as an
officer --- not a good thing -- so I carried a rifle.

The Army has differed from the Marines on the amount of time dedicated
to close quarters combat (hand-to-hand, pistol, bayonet, etc) which I
always thought was a mistake so my unit trained CQC whenever I could
get away with it. The soldiers loved it but the brass always wondered
why I was "wasting valuable training time."

Reason #3,788,321 to retire when I did.

As far as the method of carry -- the 1911 in condition 1 (round in the
chamber, hammer back, safety on) is as safe as you'll get and requires
minimal motion to fire. I used to maintain my semi-autos in condition
2 but realized I won't always have the luxury of "hearing the bump in
the night" to give me time to rack a round.

Though a few years ago a telemarketer called and started his spiel
--"We'll install an $800 security system in your home for free ---"

I interrupted him, "Dude - I have a big dog and a gun -- I'm good to
go."

He laughed and hung up.


Dan Mc

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 06:15:35 -0700 (PDT), Dan
wrote:

On Mar 26, 8:32 am, Clark wrote:

As designed the 1911 & 1911A1 do not have firing pin blocks. As far as I know
only the Model 80 Colt 1911 has a firing pin block. There may be/probably are
other pistols based on the 1911 design that have firing pin blocks but do not
count on any 1911 form pistol to have a firing pin block.

the last 1911 I fired was one of those in that box of them I
purchased. I have the S&W which is based on the 1911 and that has
both a firing pin AND hammer block. With the safety on the firing pin
is blocked. The hammer rests on a steel block and it can not be
cocked. For those used to the "cocked and locked" approach the first
introduction to the S&W might be a bit unnerving as putting the safety
on in the cocked position causes the hammer to fall. With the S&W
pushing the toggle safety to the fire position enables the double
action so the first pull will cock and fire the thing, BUT there is a
horrendous difference in trigger pull from over 10# in the double
action first shot to between 2 and 3# for subsequent shots.
The toggle is the only safety on the S&W. It does not have the grip
safety.

With my small hands this causes a shift in position making the
transition from the first shot to those following one that "for me"
eliminates any kind of acceptable accuracy. From the "cocked and
locked" position I do quite well



I think you're right (though the last time I tore down a 1911 was
1990).

They are fine pistols, I just can't feel the same attachment so many
do (to the point of veneration).

Maybe it's due to so many awful, old, worn issue versions I fired.

After the first shot in actual combat most of us would have trouble
matching the capabilities of those clapped out 1911s. One the fine
motor skills have left the building along with Elvis it's sorta point
and shoot.

I used to have customers come in and ask what would be the best
handgun for home defense. My usual rejoinder to this was if they had
to ask, don't get a hand gun. If they still insisted I suggested a
trip to the local gun club and a class. Our local police department
has such in conjunction with the local gun club. Otherwise a short
barrel 12ga was my suggestion.

They are long enough that it's more difficult to point them where you
don't want to, they are very effective and the shot stops in the first
or second wall instead of 3, 4, or 5 houses down the street.. Besides
between the tremendous noise and fantastic muzzle flash inside at
night should be good enough to discourage all but the most determined.
My own feelings are that If they are that determined you are still
better off with the 12Ga and probably in very deep doggie do.

When the adrenalin is pumping, the nerves are standing on end, and
your fine motor skills are non existent it takes someone with skill
and experience for a handgun to become really useful (outside of luck)

After the fist shot indoors even with a 9mm most people are deaf,
their head/ears are ringing like church bells, you are moving in a
sort of haze and you feel like your head is under water. It is not
like firing on a range wearing hearing protection under calm
conditions.

It's strange the ADs came up. Just couple days ago one of our local
business men had his hand guns out to the range. I do not know the
particulars as they have not been released. The only information
available is he had his hand guns to the range, dropped one, it went
off, and he's no longer with us. The revolver should not have been
loaded, or if out of the case should have been on the stand or
bench(still unloaded). Even with a carry permit you do not walk up to
the line, pull it out and start firing. I have seen an officer do
that, but even then he was committing a whole string of violations,
service and range that could have earned him a suspension or
reprimand.

I can only guess, but "I'd guess" he was probably placing several
handguns on the stand loaded, but "Id think" even then one falling
should not have caused an AD IF it was a modern firearm. If he fell
down with one in his hand he had his finger somewhere it didn't
belong. There are really just too many possibilities with the
exception he almost had to be violating safety rules. Which ones and
how is a different matter. Having spent so much time on a range Dan
might be able to speculate but with the information present that is
about all that is possible as far as I can see.





Dan Mc
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mar 28, 1:54 am, Roger wrote:
The revolver should not have been
loaded, or if out of the case should have been on the stand or
bench(still unloaded). Even with a carry permit you do not walk up to
the line, pull it out and start firing. I have seen an officer do
that, but even then he was committing a whole string of violations,
service and range that could have earned him a suspension or
reprimand.

While I agree it's safe practice to get everything setup prior to
firing at a range, I don't think you mean that you couldn't walk up
and start firing if you wanted to...?

Each state is different, but a concealed carry permit means you can
carry a loaded firearm. That means you should be able to draw and fire
at any time -- range, backyard, or in an alley.


Dan Mc