DG Differences...

I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller
field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it
out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not
going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low
energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting
the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would
touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the
corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind
conditions. How many times do you pick a field with that little
distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working
order.

I know own a flapped glider. Would I go back sure. However I like
25.5meters and anything under is just no fun.

So looking at the gliders that you listed. What fits your wallet? What
fits your body? What looks sexy (to you)? What finish is in good
condition (unless you like sanding and painting)? They are all good
gliders, if not they would be sitting on the market cheap...but there
is not much sitting on the market, and it is not cheap.

On the trailer topic. Nimbus 3 in Pfieffer trailer vs last generation
Cobra trailer....time difference to rig is about 3min. You could get
rid of that with a trailer ramp jack.

g l i d e r s t u d wrote:
I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller
field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it
out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not
going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low
energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting
the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would
touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the
corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind
conditions.

Are you sure about that? The Road & Track Road Test Summary shows that
130' is the typical emergency stopping distance of most cars from 60 mph
(52 knots).

The Porsche Carrera GT, for example, stops in 124'. I would like to see
you stop that D2 as quickly as a Porsche!



How many times do you pick a field with that little
distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working
order.

I know own a flapped glider. Would I go back sure. However I like
25.5meters and anything under is just no fun.

So looking at the gliders that you listed. What fits your wallet? What
fits your body? What looks sexy (to you)? What finish is in good
condition (unless you like sanding and painting)? They are all good
gliders, if not they would be sitting on the market cheap...but there
is not much sitting on the market, and it is not cheap.

On the trailer topic. Nimbus 3 in Pfieffer trailer vs last generation
Cobra trailer....time difference to rig is about 3min. You could get
rid of that with a trailer ramp jack.

g l i d e r s t u d wrote:
I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller
field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it
out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not
going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low
energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting
the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would
touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the
corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind
conditions. How many times do you pick a field with that little
distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working
order.

In my experience, the big advantage of certain flapped gliders (those
with 40+ degree landing position, or incorporating trailing edge dive
brakes like the Ventus A/B) isn't the reduction in stopping distance.
It's the fact that I can make very steep approaches into short
obstructed fields without a significant increase in airspeed. This
allows taking full advantage of whatever stopping distance is available.
Non-flapped gliders require a shallower approach, which is a problem
if there are wires, trees, or a hillside in the way...

Marc

Hi Marc,

Your DG-600 had flaperons, as does my Apis...............they go down
only 12 degrees, great for thermalling, but not so great for steep
approaches. So when we are talking about flapped gliders, do gliders
with un-mixed flaperons count when the topic of steep approaches is
discussed?

Cheers,
Brad


On Apr 17, 7:08*pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
g l i d e r s t u d wrote:

I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller
field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it
out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not
going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low
energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting
the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would
touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the
corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind
conditions. How many times do you pick a field with that little
distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working
order.

In my experience, the big advantage of certain flapped gliders (those
with 40+ degree landing position, or incorporating trailing edge dive
brakes like the Ventus A/B) isn't the reduction in stopping distance.
It's the fact that I can make very steep approaches into short
obstructed fields without a significant increase in airspeed. *This
allows taking full advantage of whatever stopping distance is available.
* Non-flapped gliders require a shallower approach, which is a problem
if there are wires, trees, or a hillside in the way...

Marc

Brad wrote:
Hi Marc,

Your DG-600 had flaperons, as does my Apis...............they go down
only 12 degrees, great for thermalling, but not so great for steep
approaches. So when we are talking about flapped gliders, do gliders
with un-mixed flaperons count when the topic of steep approaches is
discussed?

No, that's why I mentioned 40+ degrees. The trailing edge flap/brakes
on my Ventus B and the 40 degree flaps on my ASW-20B made short
obstructed fields seem easy. The 600 and LAK-17A were little better
than standard class ships in that area, however, both kicked into warp
in negative flap...

Marc

On Apr 17, 7:08 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
g l i d e r s t u d wrote:

I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller
field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it
out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not
going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low
energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting
the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would
touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the
corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind
conditions. How many times do you pick a field with that little
distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working
order.
In my experience, the big advantage of certain flapped gliders (those
with 40+ degree landing position, or incorporating trailing edge dive
brakes like the Ventus A/B) isn't the reduction in stopping distance.
It's the fact that I can make very steep approaches into short
obstructed fields without a significant increase in airspeed. This
allows taking full advantage of whatever stopping distance is available.
Non-flapped gliders require a shallower approach, which is a problem
if there are wires, trees, or a hillside in the way...

Marc

Marc in a feild landing you would touch down at 60mph?

I would NOT touch down at 60mph (I must have had one of those special
unflapped gliders that stalled less than 60)? I did say low energy and
nose high. Im not a math guy but isnt energy=velocity squared?

Sadly my Discus 2 went to FL so I cant show you.....maybe it was the
Maughmer winglets.... Now I am stuck with my big heavy glider that has
flaps.

g l i d e r s t u d wrote:
Marc in a feild landing you would touch down at 60mph?

I would NOT touch down at 60mph (I must have had one of those special
unflapped gliders that stalled less than 60)? I did say low energy and
nose high. Im not a math guy but isnt energy=velocity squared?

Sadly my Discus 2 went to FL so I cant show you.....maybe it was the
Maughmer winglets.... Now I am stuck with my big heavy glider that has
flaps.

What speed do you land at in order to stop in 130 feet?

Greg Arnold wrote:
g l i d e r s t u d wrote:
Marc in a feild landing you would touch down at 60mph?

I would NOT touch down at 60mph (I must have had one of those special
unflapped gliders that stalled less than 60)? I did say low energy and
nose high. Im not a math guy but isnt energy=velocity squared?

Snip

What speed do you land at in order to stop in 130 feet?

For short, obstructed-approach, field-landings, you can't have too much
disposable drag. The shortest non-abbie-normal landing I ever witnessed
was from the cockpit of my HP-14, on an unpaved, alluvial-fan airfield,
in a 5-knot breeze, at 5300' msl. After nailing the approach (easy to
do with high drag) and a tail-first flare, I paced off the main-wheel
roll at 3 fuselage lengths...accomplished w/o nose-dragging braking.

I have no idea what actual touchdown speed was, though the last part of
final was flown at 40 knots indicated (utterly benign conditions, and,
well above indicated stall speed). Point being, lots of drag and lift
can't be beat for steep, slow approaches, and short landing rolls.
Personally, I find high-drag ships much easier to consistently land than
low-drag ones.

Regards,
Bob W.

P.S. Kinetic Energy = 1/2*Mass*(Velocity*Velocity), so touchdown energy
is proportional to velocity squared. Your wheel brake knows only
velocity-squared in energy dissipation terms (though aerodynamic drag is
its friend early-on in the landing roll).

*sigh*

Well, its all turned out to be moot:

The DG-202 is too far away for me to go look at it this week, and the
DG-300 sold. :-(

--Noel

On 2008-04-19 20:12:21 -0400, "noel.wade" said:

*sigh*

Well, its all turned out to be moot:

The DG-202 is too far away for me to go look at it this week, and the
DG-300 sold. :-(

--Noel

There's a DG-200 listed for sale on wingsandwheels.com