Pitch vs. trim in flight phases

On May 16, 9:55 am, gatt wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
In a small GA aircraft, in which phases of flight will you normally use mostly trim to adjust pitch, and in which phases will you normally mostly use
the yoke?

Good question for r.a.s.

You don't want to use the trim to adjust pitch, just to relieve the
control pressure. Electronic trim switches mounted to the yoke are a
bad habit waiting to happen; they're disabled in a lot of training
aircraft. Always remember "Pitch, power, trim."

The Airplane Flying Handbook, FAA-H-8083-3A, states:
"The pilot must avoid using the trim to establish or correct airplane
attitude. The airplane attitude must be established and held first, then
control pressures trimmed out so that the airplane will maintain the
desired attitude in 'hands off' flight. Attempting to 'fly the airplane
with trim tabs' is a common fault in basic flying technique even among
experienced pilots."

It's important for the pilot to feel the elevator pressure whereas with
a trim tab you're delegating that to mechanical authority.

Also, if you get out of the habit of knowing where your trim is set, you
increase the likelihood of approaching an elevator trim stall in a
missed approach or go-around. This can be demonstrated pretty well in
MSFS2004--I think in the Mooney--by adjusting the elevator trim as if
you were in full-flaps landing configuration and then adding full power;
back-elevator trim will cause a radical nose-up pitch, exceeding the
critical angle of attack. To avoid elevator trim stall the pilot must
exert a great deal of forward pressure on the nose -and- retrim the
airplane, and it has to be brisk and smooth. Whether by hand or
electric motor, controlling it by trim is too slow.
-c

Quick question, (it's been awhile since I've piloted)
is the trim (Cessna 152) in the center, right of the
pilot, and has zero mark to be set null in pre-flight?

Personally I had real friggin hassle with trim. I'd get
to 4000' set a course for x-country, maybe an hour
away, set cruise, then touch-up trim, to relieve yoke
control. Well it never really worked for me.
As soon as I thought I had it right, by Descent Indicator
(no jokes guys, women of the opposite sex might be lurkin)
would start wandering off zero.
My habit became, set Trim slightly down and use my
pinky pressure back on the yoke to keep my Descent
Indicator at zero, with an occasional glance so I could
enjoy the view and work nav.
Ken
PS: Kens Rule: Use your pinky to stop being InDescent,
and use the rest of your fingers anyway you want.

On May 17, 5:51*am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On May 16, 9:55 am, gatt wrote:





Mxsmanic wrote:
In a small GA aircraft, in which phases of flight will you normally use mostly trim to adjust pitch, and in which phases will you normally mostly use
the yoke?

Good question for r.a.s.

You don't want to use the trim to adjust pitch, just to relieve the
control pressure. *Electronic trim switches mounted to the yoke are a
bad habit waiting to happen; they're disabled in a lot of training
aircraft. *Always remember "Pitch, power, trim."

The Airplane Flying Handbook, FAA-H-8083-3A, states:
"The pilot must avoid using the trim to establish or correct airplane
attitude. The airplane attitude must be established and held first, then
control pressures trimmed out so that the airplane will maintain the
desired attitude in 'hands off' flight. Attempting to 'fly the airplane
with trim tabs' is a common fault in basic flying technique even among
experienced pilots."

It's important for the pilot to feel the elevator pressure whereas with
a trim tab you're delegating that to mechanical authority.

Also, if you get out of the habit of knowing where your trim is set, you
increase the likelihood of approaching an elevator trim stall in a
missed approach or go-around. *This can be demonstrated pretty well in
MSFS2004--I think in the Mooney--by adjusting the elevator trim as if
you were in full-flaps landing configuration and then adding full power;
back-elevator trim will cause a radical nose-up pitch, exceeding the
critical angle of attack. *To avoid elevator trim stall the pilot must
exert a great deal of forward pressure on the nose -and- retrim the
airplane, and it has to be brisk and smooth. *Whether by hand or
electric motor, controlling it by trim is too slow.
-c

Quick question, (it's been awhile since I've piloted)
is the trim (Cessna 152) *in the center, right of the
pilot, and has zero mark to be set null in pre-flight?


It's also around the windows and other edges. Hope this helps your
understading what you are seeing on your computer screen.
Cheers

Ken S. Tucker wrote:


Quick question, (it's been awhile since I've piloted)
is the trim (Cessna 152) in the center, right of the
pilot, and has zero mark to be set null in pre-flight?

Correct. (Well it has a "takeoff position" which is more or less center.)

In the '74 PA-28R I rent it's between the seats and harder to see, and
takeoff position is about "a quarter-inch back" on the slot since
there's no visible mark. I don't like the trim-wheel there. The first
time I flew in the right seat and reached for the trim handle I cracked
my knuckle against the door.


-c

On May 16, 12:19 pm, gatt wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:

Quick question, (it's been awhile since I've piloted)
is the trim (Cessna 152) in the center, right of the
pilot, and has zero mark to be set null in pre-flight?

Correct. (Well it has a "takeoff position" which is more or less center.)

In the '74 PA-28R I rent it's between the seats and harder to see, and
takeoff position is about "a quarter-inch back" on the slot since
there's no visible mark. I don't like the trim-wheel there. The first
time I flew in the right seat and reached for the trim handle I cracked
my knuckle against the door.

Ok thanks.
I was ok with the location of the trim wheel, but the adjustment
was too coarse for me, but I could be a bitchy sissy.
My wheel was graduated, with a zero mark and did not quite
give the fine adjustment I wanted. That could be cables out
to the tail, I should have learned the mechanism!
Regards
Ken

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
:

On May 16, 12:19 pm, gatt wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:

Quick question, (it's been awhile since I've piloted)
is the trim (Cessna 152) in the center, right of the
pilot, and has zero mark to be set null in pre-flight?

Correct. (Well it has a "takeoff position" which is more or less
center.)

In the '74 PA-28R I rent it's between the seats and harder to see,
and takeoff position is about "a quarter-inch back" on the slot since
there's no visible mark. I don't like the trim-wheel there. The first
time I flew in the right seat and reached for the trim handle I
cracked my knuckle against the door.

Ok thanks.
I was ok with the location of the trim wheel, but the adjustment
was too coarse for me, but I could be a bitchy sissy.
My wheel was graduated, with a zero mark and did not quite
give the fine adjustment I wanted. That could be cables out
to the tail, I should have learned the mechanism!



Good grief, he's criticising design now.

Bertie

On May 16, 1:49 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

I was ok with the location of the trim wheel, but the adjustment
was too coarse for me, but I could be a bitchy sissy.
My wheel was graduated, with a zero mark and did not quite
give the fine adjustment I wanted. That could be cables out
to the tail, I should have learned the mechanism!

Nothing to do with the cables. Cessna's trim is anything but
sensitive, having four or five full turns of the wheel for the trim
range. Try a Citabria sometime, where the trim is a lever that moves
about eight or ten inches for the full range. Much more twitchy.

As far as others have asked about sim trim, the good,
commercial training sims (Level II) have a pitch control mechanism
centered by some strong springs that supposedly simulate elevator
pressures. The anchor points for those springs are movable, and those
are what the trim mechanism moves. So in slow flight the yoke is well
back, against the springs, so that the trim moves the spring anchors
back until the pressure disappears. The yoke does not move and the
pilot, if he's "flying" right, doesn't let it move. He just trims off
the pressure. Mx's stick, on the other hand, trims electronically so
that he has to gradually center the stick to keep the nose where it's
supposed to be. Not realistic at all. And the springs in those cheap
things are so feeble as to be a joke. Flying the real airplane is much
more work. If you had realistic spring forces you'd have to bolt the
stick to the desk and anchor the chair to the floor.
I built our own procedures sim here. Proper frame welded up,
proper adjustable seat, huge monitor, real rudder pedals with
realistic spring feel, real stick with a heavy non-discrete center
spring and an adjustable anchor to simulate a reaslistic trim. Real
steel throttle/prop/mixture quadrant. Robbed the electronics out of
the CH stick and pedals to drive it.
But still, it's used only as a procedures trainer, not for teaching
how to fly. The students use it for free to practice what they learned
on our certified Elite sim or in the air under the hood. It's much
more work to fly it, thanks to the big springs I put in it. I need to
redesign the mechanical trim to get more travel, though.
Underestimated the degree of elevator movement between high cruise and
slow flight.
And it has a collective for helicopter flight.

Dan

On May 27, 7:42 am, wrote:
On May 16, 1:49 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

I was ok with the location of the trim wheel, but the adjustment
was too coarse for me, but I could be a bitchy sissy.
My wheel was graduated, with a zero mark and did not quite
give the fine adjustment I wanted. That could be cables out
to the tail, I should have learned the mechanism!

Nothing to do with the cables. Cessna's trim is anything but
sensitive, having four or five full turns of the wheel for the trim
range. Try a Citabria sometime, where the trim is a lever that moves
about eight or ten inches for the full range. Much more twitchy.

As far as others have asked about sim trim, the good,
commercial training sims (Level II) have a pitch control mechanism
centered by some strong springs that supposedly simulate elevator
pressures. The anchor points for those springs are movable, and those
are what the trim mechanism moves. So in slow flight the yoke is well
back, against the springs, so that the trim moves the spring anchors
back until the pressure disappears. The yoke does not move and the
pilot, if he's "flying" right, doesn't let it move. He just trims off
the pressure. Mx's stick, on the other hand, trims electronically so
that he has to gradually center the stick to keep the nose where it's
supposed to be. Not realistic at all. And the springs in those cheap
things are so feeble as to be a joke. Flying the real airplane is much
more work. If you had realistic spring forces you'd have to bolt the
stick to the desk and anchor the chair to the floor.
I built our own procedures sim here. Proper frame welded up,
proper adjustable seat, huge monitor, real rudder pedals with
realistic spring feel, real stick with a heavy non-discrete center
spring and an adjustable anchor to simulate a reaslistic trim. Real
steel throttle/prop/mixture quadrant. Robbed the electronics out of
the CH stick and pedals to drive it.
But still, it's used only as a procedures trainer, not for teaching
how to fly. The students use it for free to practice what they learned
on our certified Elite sim or in the air under the hood. It's much
more work to fly it, thanks to the big springs I put in it. I need to
redesign the mechanical trim to get more travel, though.
Underestimated the degree of elevator movement between high cruise and
slow flight.
And it has a collective for helicopter flight.

Dan

IIRC you (Dan) are in Sask, I'm just over the hills
in BC. If we're ever going by your place I'd love to
try that sim, how much do you charge?
Ken

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:e7a17efd-66f3-
:

On May 27, 7:42 am, wrote:
On May 16, 1:49 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

I was ok with the location of the trim wheel, but the adjustment
was too coarse for me, but I could be a bitchy sissy.
My wheel was graduated, with a zero mark and did not quite
give the fine adjustment I wanted. That could be cables out
to the tail, I should have learned the mechanism!

Nothing to do with the cables. Cessna's trim is anything
but
sensitive, having four or five full turns of the wheel for the trim
range. Try a Citabria sometime, where the trim is a lever that moves
about eight or ten inches for the full range. Much more twitchy.

As far as others have asked about sim trim, the good,
commercial training sims (Level II) have a pitch control mechanism
centered by some strong springs that supposedly simulate elevator
pressures. The anchor points for those springs are movable, and those
are what the trim mechanism moves. So in slow flight the yoke is well
back, against the springs, so that the trim moves the spring anchors
back until the pressure disappears. The yoke does not move and the
pilot, if he's "flying" right, doesn't let it move. He just trims off
the pressure. Mx's stick, on the other hand, trims electronically so
that he has to gradually center the stick to keep the nose where it's
supposed to be. Not realistic at all. And the springs in those cheap
things are so feeble as to be a joke. Flying the real airplane is
much
more work. If you had realistic spring forces you'd have to bolt the
stick to the desk and anchor the chair to the floor.
I built our own procedures sim here. Proper frame welded up,
proper adjustable seat, huge monitor, real rudder pedals with
realistic spring feel, real stick with a heavy non-discrete center
spring and an adjustable anchor to simulate a reaslistic trim. Real
steel throttle/prop/mixture quadrant. Robbed the electronics out of
the CH stick and pedals to drive it.
But still, it's used only as a procedures trainer, not for teaching
how to fly. The students use it for free to practice what they
learned
on our certified Elite sim or in the air under the hood. It's much
more work to fly it, thanks to the big springs I put in it. I need to
redesign the mechanical trim to get more travel, though.
Underestimated the degree of elevator movement between high cruise
and
slow flight.
And it has a collective for helicopter flight.

Dan

IIRC you (Dan) are in Sask, I'm just over the hills
in BC. If we're ever going by your place I'd love to
try that sim, how much do you charge?
Ken


The dangers of using your real name.

Dan,if he comes do take pics of him and his camero.



Bertie

On May 27, 10:10 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On May 27, 7:42 am, wrote:



On May 16, 1:49 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

I was ok with the location of the trim wheel, but the adjustment
was too coarse for me, but I could be a bitchy sissy.
My wheel was graduated, with a zero mark and did not quite
give the fine adjustment I wanted. That could be cables out
to the tail, I should have learned the mechanism!

Nothing to do with the cables. Cessna's trim is anything but
sensitive, having four or five full turns of the wheel for the trim
range. Try a Citabria sometime, where the trim is a lever that moves
about eight or ten inches for the full range. Much more twitchy.

As far as others have asked about sim trim, the good,
commercial training sims (Level II) have a pitch control mechanism
centered by some strong springs that supposedly simulate elevator
pressures. The anchor points for those springs are movable, and those
are what the trim mechanism moves. So in slow flight the yoke is well
back, against the springs, so that the trim moves the spring anchors
back until the pressure disappears. The yoke does not move and the
pilot, if he's "flying" right, doesn't let it move. He just trims off
the pressure. Mx's stick, on the other hand, trims electronically so
that he has to gradually center the stick to keep the nose where it's
supposed to be. Not realistic at all. And the springs in those cheap
things are so feeble as to be a joke. Flying the real airplane is much
more work. If you had realistic spring forces you'd have to bolt the
stick to the desk and anchor the chair to the floor.
I built our own procedures sim here. Proper frame welded up,
proper adjustable seat, huge monitor, real rudder pedals with
realistic spring feel, real stick with a heavy non-discrete center
spring and an adjustable anchor to simulate a reaslistic trim. Real
steel throttle/prop/mixture quadrant. Robbed the electronics out of
the CH stick and pedals to drive it.
But still, it's used only as a procedures trainer, not for teaching
how to fly. The students use it for free to practice what they learned
on our certified Elite sim or in the air under the hood. It's much
more work to fly it, thanks to the big springs I put in it. I need to
redesign the mechanical trim to get more travel, though.
Underestimated the degree of elevator movement between high cruise and
slow flight.
And it has a collective for helicopter flight.

Dan

IIRC you (Dan) are in Sask, I'm just over the hills
in BC. If we're ever going by your place I'd love to
try that sim, how much do you charge?
Ken

It's for our College students only.

Dan

On May 28, 7:10 am, wrote:
On May 27, 10:10 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:



On May 27, 7:42 am, wrote:

On May 16, 1:49 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

I was ok with the location of the trim wheel, but the adjustment
was too coarse for me, but I could be a bitchy sissy.
My wheel was graduated, with a zero mark and did not quite
give the fine adjustment I wanted. That could be cables out
to the tail, I should have learned the mechanism!

Nothing to do with the cables. Cessna's trim is anything but
sensitive, having four or five full turns of the wheel for the trim
range. Try a Citabria sometime, where the trim is a lever that moves
about eight or ten inches for the full range. Much more twitchy.

As far as others have asked about sim trim, the good,
commercial training sims (Level II) have a pitch control mechanism
centered by some strong springs that supposedly simulate elevator
pressures. The anchor points for those springs are movable, and those
are what the trim mechanism moves. So in slow flight the yoke is well
back, against the springs, so that the trim moves the spring anchors
back until the pressure disappears. The yoke does not move and the
pilot, if he's "flying" right, doesn't let it move. He just trims off
the pressure. Mx's stick, on the other hand, trims electronically so
that he has to gradually center the stick to keep the nose where it's
supposed to be. Not realistic at all. And the springs in those cheap
things are so feeble as to be a joke. Flying the real airplane is much
more work. If you had realistic spring forces you'd have to bolt the
stick to the desk and anchor the chair to the floor.
I built our own procedures sim here. Proper frame welded up,
proper adjustable seat, huge monitor, real rudder pedals with
realistic spring feel, real stick with a heavy non-discrete center
spring and an adjustable anchor to simulate a reaslistic trim. Real
steel throttle/prop/mixture quadrant. Robbed the electronics out of
the CH stick and pedals to drive it.
But still, it's used only as a procedures trainer, not for teaching
how to fly. The students use it for free to practice what they learned
on our certified Elite sim or in the air under the hood. It's much
more work to fly it, thanks to the big springs I put in it. I need to
redesign the mechanical trim to get more travel, though.
Underestimated the degree of elevator movement between high cruise and
slow flight.
And it has a collective for helicopter flight.

Dan

IIRC you (Dan) are in Sask, I'm just over the hills
in BC. If we're ever going by your place I'd love to
try that sim, how much do you charge?
Ken

It's for our College students only.

No problemo, I'll enroll...which college?
Ken