Bothering a Pilot on Final

On May 28, 10:22 am, Dale wrote:
In article GYe%j.183758$yE1.50750@attbi_s21,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:



I really like are the guys who announce that they're "over-flying the field
at 4500 feet, heading West..."

Is that really so bad? Quite common to use an airport as a waypoint, by
making the announcement it may let the other guy at 4500 overflying know
to put the paper down.

In Canada that kind of report is required if there is a Mandatory Freq.

I recall being taught to announce a position when overflying an
airport (assuming you aren't overflying by some ridiculous amount).
I announce when overflying to have a look-see before joining the
pattern. Someone else might be doing the same thing.

On 2008-05-29, wrote:
I recall being taught to announce a position when overflying an
airport (assuming you aren't overflying by some ridiculous amount).
I announce when overflying to have a look-see before joining the
pattern. Someone else might be doing the same thing.

Me too. It's the guys who announce that they're overflying FRM at 4500 MSL
(airport elevation is 1162) that leave me scratching my head.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 10 June)

I recall being taught to announce a position when overflying an
airport (assuming you aren't overflying by some ridiculous amount).
I announce when overflying to have a look-see before joining the
pattern. Someone else might be doing the same thing.

Sure, if you're over-flying an airport that you're landing at, announcing is
proper procedure. But if you're flying cross-country, it's kinda silly to
announce that you're over-flying every airport en route...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
wrote in message
...
On May 28, 10:22 am, Dale wrote:
In article GYe%j.183758$yE1.50750@attbi_s21,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:



I really like are the guys who announce that they're "over-flying the
field
at 4500 feet, heading West..."

Is that really so bad? Quite common to use an airport as a waypoint, by
making the announcement it may let the other guy at 4500 overflying know
to put the paper down.

In Canada that kind of report is required if there is a Mandatory Freq.

I recall being taught to announce a position when overflying an
airport (assuming you aren't overflying by some ridiculous amount).
I announce when overflying to have a look-see before joining the
pattern. Someone else might be doing the same thing.

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
Sure, if you're over-flying an airport that you're landing at, announcing is
proper procedure. But if you're flying cross-country, it's kinda silly to
announce that you're over-flying every airport en route...

Depends, IMO. We have several uncontrolled fields in this area. If I'm
in the pattern and someone is overflying 500 feet-or-so above (I realize
if you're on a x-c, you'd likely be higher, but maybe not), I find it
helpful to know if they're going to join the pattern or if they're
overflying and continuing on. I prefer the call to not knowing.

I heard someone talking about how it isn't necessary to make a call
coming into an uncontrolled airport "if it isn't busy". So if 6 people
are coming in thinking it isn't busy because it's quiet (there goes that
idea!). I absolutely understand not making unnecessary radio calls, but
why are some *so* opposed to making a call?

Shirl wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote:
Sure, if you're over-flying an airport that you're landing at, announcing is
proper procedure. But if you're flying cross-country, it's kinda silly to
announce that you're over-flying every airport en route...

Depends, IMO. We have several uncontrolled fields in this area. If I'm
in the pattern and someone is overflying 500 feet-or-so above (I realize
if you're on a x-c, you'd likely be higher, but maybe not), I find it
helpful to know if they're going to join the pattern or if they're
overflying and continuing on. I prefer the call to not knowing.

I heard someone talking about how it isn't necessary to make a call
coming into an uncontrolled airport "if it isn't busy". So if 6 people
are coming in thinking it isn't busy because it's quiet (there goes that
idea!). I absolutely understand not making unnecessary radio calls, but
why are some *so* opposed to making a call?

The way I taught this was to consider the altitude and use common sense.
If crossing high enough that you are well out of the transition area
where someone coming out of or descending into an uncontrolled airport
would be, no need to say anything.

If however, you were crossing en route above the pattern altitude but
inside the area right above that....say to within a thousand feet above,
where aircraft entering or leaving the area might be present, it's a
good idea to let the airport know who you are where you are and where
you're headed.

--
Dudley Henriques

On Thu, 29 May 2008 09:52:44 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote in
:

If crossing high enough that you are well out of the transition area
where someone coming out of or descending into an uncontrolled airport
would be, no need to say anything.

If however, you were crossing en route above the pattern altitude but
inside the area right above that....say to within a thousand feet above,
where aircraft entering or leaving the area might be present, it's a
good idea to let the airport know who you are where you are and where
you're headed.

The Advisory Circular mentions notifying UNICOM stations of over
flight of uncontrolled fields, but I find no mention of
self-announcing over flight intention on CTAF:

AC No: 9042F

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/c54e50252a7fa56d862569d8007804ba/$FILE/ac90-42F.pdf
10 . UNICOM COMMUNICATION PROCEDURES.
a. In communicating with a UNICOM station, the flowing practices
will help reduce frequency
congestion, facilitate a better understanding of pilot intentions,
help identify the location of aircraft in. the traffic pattern,
and enhance safety of flight:
(1) Select the correct CTAF frequency.
(2) State the identification of the UNICOM station you are calling
in each transmission.
(3) Speak slowly and distinctly.
(4) Notify the UNICOM station approximately 10 miles from the
airport, reporting altitude, aircraft type, aircraft
identification, location relative to the airport, and whether
-- landing or overflight.
Request wind information and runway in use.
(5) Report on downwind, base, and final approach.
(6) Report leaving the runway.



The AIM also mentions notifying UNICOM stations of over flight intent,
and while stating intentions on CTAF is mentioned in 4-1-9(g)(1), I
find no mention of broadcasting over flight intent on CTAF:


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...4/aim0401.html
4-1-9. Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without Operating
Control Towers

g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions

1. General. Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast
their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on
the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports
which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce
procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate
with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, "Traffic in
the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce
Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any
condition.


So, announcing intent to over fly an airport on CTAF is a bit
ambiguous. As you have indicated, if it seems prudent, do it.

Larry Dighera wrote:


The Advisory Circular mentions notifying UNICOM stations of over
flight of uncontrolled fields, but I find no mention of
self-announcing over flight intention on CTAF:

AC No: 9042F

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/c54e50252a7fa56d862569d8007804ba/$FILE/ac90-42F.pdf
10 . UNICOM COMMUNICATION PROCEDURES.
a. In communicating with a UNICOM station, the flowing practices
will help reduce frequency
congestion, facilitate a better understanding of pilot intentions,
help identify the location of aircraft in. the traffic pattern,
and enhance safety of flight:
-- (1) Select the correct CTAF frequency. --
(2) State the identification of the UNICOM station you are calling
in each transmission.
(3) Speak slowly and distinctly.
(4) Notify the UNICOM station approximately 10 miles from the
airport, reporting altitude, aircraft type, aircraft
identification, location relative to the airport, and whether
-- landing or overflight.
Request wind information and runway in use.
(5) Report on downwind, base, and final approach.
(6) Report leaving the runway.



What do you mean? It's mentioned in the step 1 of what you posted.

On Thu, 29 May 2008 10:21:17 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:


The Advisory Circular mentions notifying UNICOM stations of over
flight of uncontrolled fields, but I find no mention of
self-announcing over flight intention on CTAF:

AC No: 9042F

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/c54e50252a7fa56d862569d8007804ba/$FILE/ac90-42F.pdf
10 . UNICOM COMMUNICATION PROCEDURES.
a. In communicating with a UNICOM station, the flowing practices
will help reduce frequency
congestion, facilitate a better understanding of pilot intentions,
help identify the location of aircraft in. the traffic pattern,
and enhance safety of flight:
-- (1) Select the correct CTAF frequency. --
(2) State the identification of the UNICOM station you are calling
in each transmission.
(3) Speak slowly and distinctly.
(4) Notify the UNICOM station approximately 10 miles from the
airport, reporting altitude, aircraft type, aircraft
identification, location relative to the airport, and whether
-- landing or overflight.
Request wind information and runway in use.
(5) Report on downwind, base, and final approach.
(6) Report leaving the runway.



What do you mean? It's mentioned in the step 1 of what you posted.


Indeed. I overlooked that.

I guess I didn't expect to see CTAF mentioned under UNICOM.


The AIM hast this definition of UNICOM stations:

e. Information Provided by Aeronautical Advisory Stations (UNICOM)

1. UNICOM is a nongovernment air/ground radio communication
station which may provide airport information at public use
airports where there is no tower or FSS.


And the Pilot/Controller Glossary provides this definition of CTAF:


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...pubs/PCG/C.HTM
COMMON TRAFFIC ADVISORY FREQUENCY (CTAF)- A frequency designed for
the purpose of carrying out airport advisory practices while
operating to or from an airport without an operating control
tower. The CTAF may be a UNICOM, Multicom, FSS, or tower frequency
and is identified in appropriate aeronautical publications.

(Refer to AC 90-42, Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without
Operating Control Towers.)

(neither CTAF nor UNICOM are mentioned in Part 1 definitions)

So while the CTAF _frequency_ may be a UNICOM frequency also, I always
considered UNICOM stations to be manned, while I apparently
erroneously considered radio operation on CTAF frequencies to be
limited to one-way self-announced position and intention broadcasts.
Obviously CTAF is only so limited when there is neither an operating
UNICOM nor FSS station at the field.

Despite my confusion over the nomenclature, these documents seem to be
the sole guidance concerning announcing overflight intentions provided
by FAA. Neither CTAF nor UNICOM are mentioned in Part 91.

On May 29, 8:06 am, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 09:52:44 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote in
:

If crossing high enough that you are well out of the transition area
where someone coming out of or descending into an uncontrolled airport
would be, no need to say anything.

If however, you were crossing en route above the pattern altitude but
inside the area right above that....say to within a thousand feet above,
where aircraft entering or leaving the area might be present, it's a
good idea to let the airport know who you are where you are and where
you're headed.

The Advisory Circular mentions notifying UNICOM stations of over
flight of uncontrolled fields, but I find no mention of
self-announcing over flight intention on CTAF:

AC No: 9042F

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...ry/rgAdvisoryC...
10 . UNICOM COMMUNICATION PROCEDURES.
a. In communicating with a UNICOM station, the flowing practices
will help reduce frequency
congestion, facilitate a better understanding of pilot intentions,
help identify the location of aircraft in. the traffic pattern,
and enhance safety of flight:
(1) Select the correct CTAF frequency.
(2) State the identification of the UNICOM station you are calling
in each transmission.
(3) Speak slowly and distinctly.
(4) Notify the UNICOM station approximately 10 miles from the
airport, reporting altitude, aircraft type, aircraft
identification, location relative to the airport, and whether
-- landing or overflight.
Request wind information and runway in use.
(5) Report on downwind, base, and final approach.
(6) Report leaving the runway.

The AIM also mentions notifying UNICOM stations of over flight intent,
and while stating intentions on CTAF is mentioned in 4-1-9(g)(1), I
find no mention of broadcasting over flight intent on CTAF:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...ications/atpub...
4-1-9. Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without Operating
Control Towers

g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions

1. General. Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast
their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on
the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports
which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce
procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate
with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, "Traffic in
the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce
Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any
condition.

So, announcing intent to over fly an airport on CTAF is a bit
ambiguous. As you have indicated, if it seems prudent, do it.

Where we flew we used ettiquette.
Example: We're approaching an airport and at 5 miles,
we'd radio tower "Yankee Yankee Golf approaching
from the XXX, intends to enter the circuit.
I'd hear, "Roger, your clear".

Next I'd key radio just before doing my 30 degree
bank to get into the down-wind, so the controller
can get an easy visual of me, "YYG turning onto
downwind". Same for every other turn, to final.

Radio work is 1st for the controller, and secondly
for other a/c, he's the boss.
Ken

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
:


I'd hear, "Roger, your clear".


I'm sure you did. You can even hear grammatically correct.

Next I'd key radio just before doing my 30 degree
bank to get into the down-wind, so the controller
can get an easy visual of me, "YYG turning onto
downwind". Same for every other turn, to final.

Radio work is 1st for the controller, and secondly
for other a/c, he's the boss.


No, he isn't fjukktard.



Bertie