History Channel

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
m...
GC wrote:

A question to the group.
Is the History channel distorting the facts?
I have noticed in recent weeks a number of totally incorrect comments
.eg Americans landing in Rabaul during WW2,(its Rab owl by the way
not Rab all) The shooting down of Yamamoto's aircraft was an
assassination..
B17's being used during the day in Europe as they were precision
bombers not carpet bombers as the RAF were ?

They are a few of very many I can recall.


The only one of those that is totally incorrect is Americans landing in
Rabaul during WW2.

Also incorrect.
B17's being used during the day in Europe as they were precision
bombers not carpet bombers as the RAF were ?

Robert Sveinson wrote:

The only one of those that is totally incorrect is Americans landing
in Rabaul during WW2.

Also incorrect.
B17's being used during the day in Europe as they were precision
bombers not carpet bombers as the RAF were ?


No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s delivered
their bombs very accurately for that period.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
m...
Robert Sveinson wrote:

The only one of those that is totally incorrect is Americans landing
in Rabaul during WW2.

Also incorrect.
B17's being used during the day in Europe as they were precision
bombers not carpet bombers as the RAF were ?


No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s
delivered their bombs very accurately for that period.

How accurately was that??
All the B-17s "toggle" their loads at the same
time and only ONE bombardier doing the aiming!
Bombs scattered over an area on the ground
equal to the area of the spread of the aircraft
in the air. Of course one can claim that at least one
or two of the hundreds of bombs dropped
hit the target so there is the proof of
"very accurately"!

The USAAF NEVER hit a target like the Tirptz,
Antheor Viaduct, various Gestapo headquartes,
Amiens prison, Saumur tunnel.

The Tirpitz, the Antheor Viaduct, Saumur Tunnel
were hit using ONE bomb
per aircraft, as opposed to the USAAF shotgun
method of bombing..

The United States Strategic Bombing Survey
http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm#eaocar

The U. S. Army Air Forces entered the European war with the firm view that
specific industries and services were the most promising targets in the
enemy economy, and they believed that if these targets were to be hit
accurately, the attacks had to be made in daylight. A word needs to be said
on the problem of accuracy in attack. Before the war, the U. S. Army Air
Forces had advanced bombing techniques to their highest level of development
and had trained a limited number of crews to a high degree of precision in
bombing under target range conditions, thus leading to the expressions "pin
point" and "pickle barrel" bombing. However, it was not possible to approach
such standards of accuracy under battle conditions imposed over Europe. Many
limiting factors intervened; target obscuration by clouds, fog, smoke
screens and industrial haze; enemy fighter opposition which necessitated
defensive bombing formations, thus restricting freedom of maneuver;
antiaircraft artillery defenses, demanding minimum time exposure of the
attacking force in order to keep losses down; and finally, time limitations
imposed on combat crew training after the war began.

It was considered that enemy opposition made formation flying and formation
attack a necessary tactical and technical procedure. **Bombing patterns
resulted -- only a portion of which could fall on small precision targets.**
The rest spilled over




on adjacent plants, or built-up areas, or in open fields. Accuracy ranged
from poor to excellent.** When visual conditions were favorable and flak
defenses were not intense, bombing results were at their best.
Unfortunately, the major portion of bombing operations over Germany had to
be conducted under weather and battle conditions that restricted bombing
technique, and accuracy suffered accordingly. Conventionally the air forces
designated as "the target area" a circle having a radius of 1000 feet around
the aiming point of attack. While accuracy improved during the war, Survey
studies show that, in the over-all, only about 20% of the bombs aimed at
precision targets fell within this target area. A peak accuracy of 70% was
reached for the month of February 1945. These are important facts for the
reader to keep in mind, especially when considering the tonnages of bombs
delivered by the air forces. Of necessity a far larger tonnage was carried
than hit German installations.

Robert Sveinson wrote:

No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s
delivered their bombs very accurately for that period.


How accurately was that??
All the B-17s "toggle" their loads at the same
time and only ONE bombardier doing the aiming!
Bombs scattered over an area on the ground
equal to the area of the spread of the aircraft
in the air. Of course one can claim that at least one
or two of the hundreds of bombs dropped
hit the target so there is the proof of
"very accurately"!


That's not how it was done. They did not release bombs simultaneously, each
bomber in formation released upon seeing the preceding bomber release its
bombs.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
m...
Robert Sveinson wrote:

No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s
delivered their bombs very accurately for that period.


How accurately was that??
All the B-17s "toggle" their loads at the same
time and only ONE bombardier doing the aiming!
Bombs scattered over an area on the ground
equal to the area of the spread of the aircraft
in the air. Of course one can claim that at least one
or two of the hundreds of bombs dropped
hit the target so there is the proof of
"very accurately"!


That's not how it was done. They did not release bombs simultaneously,
each bomber in formation released upon seeing the preceding bomber release
its bombs.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
m...
Robert Sveinson wrote:

No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s
delivered their bombs very accurately for that period.


How accurately was that??
All the B-17s "toggle" their loads at the same
time and only ONE bombardier doing the aiming!
Bombs scattered over an area on the ground
equal to the area of the spread of the aircraft
in the air. Of course one can claim that at least one
or two of the hundreds of bombs dropped
hit the target so there is the proof of
"very accurately"!


That's not how it was done. They did not release bombs simultaneously,
each bomber in formation released upon seeing the preceding bomber release
its bombs.

Well since you didn't read the following the
last time, here it is again.

The U. S. Army Air Forces entered the European war with the firm view that
specific industries and services were the most promising targets in the
enemy economy, and they believed that if these targets were to be hit
accurately, the attacks had to be made in daylight. A word needs to be said
on the problem of accuracy in attack. Before the war, the U. S. Army Air
Forces had advanced bombing techniques to their highest level of development
and had trained a limited number of crews to a high degree of precision in
bombing under target range conditions, thus leading to the expressions "pin
point" and "pickle barrel" bombing. However, it was not possible to approach
such standards of accuracy under battle conditions imposed over Europe. Many
limiting factors intervened; target obscuration by clouds, fog, smoke
screens and industrial haze; enemy fighter opposition which necessitated
defensive bombing formations, thus restricting freedom of maneuver;
antiaircraft artillery defenses, demanding minimum time exposure of the
attacking force in order to keep losses down; and finally, time limitations
imposed on combat crew training after the war began.

It was considered that enemy opposition made formation flying and formation
attack a necessary tactical and technical procedure. Bombing patterns
resulted -- only a portion of which could fall on small precision targets.
The rest spilled over

on adjacent plants, or built-up areas, or in open fields. Accuracy ranged
from poor to excellent. When visual conditions were favorable and flak
defenses were not intense, bombing results were at their best.
Unfortunately, the major portion of bombing operations over Germany had to
be conducted under weather and battle conditions that restricted bombing
technique, and accuracy suffered accordingly. Conventionally the air forces
designated as "the target area" a circle having a radius of 1000 feet around
the aiming point of attack. While accuracy improved during the war, Survey
studies show that, in the over-all, only about 20% of the bombs aimed at
precision targets fell within this target area. A peak accuracy of 70% was
reached for the month of February 1945. These are important facts for the
reader to keep in mind, especially when considering the tonnages of bombs
delivered by the air forces. Of necessity a far larger tonnage was carried
than hit German installations.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
Robert Sveinson wrote:
The only one of those that is totally incorrect is Americans landing
in Rabaul during WW2.
Also incorrect.
B17's being used during the day in Europe as they were precision
bombers not carpet bombers as the RAF were ?


No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s delivered
their bombs very accurately for that period.


But when it came to the crunch?

Don't forget that the initial Dresden raid was supposed to have been
flown by the Americans but they cried off because of bad weather, so the
RAF stepped into the gap and played the lead role. American "precision"
bombing in that same campaign also saw the Americans bomb Prague by
mistake, although I don't know how accurately they did that. It
certainly upset the Russians, who were in residence by that time!

Essentially the Norden bomb sight worked only in clear skies - not an
everyday thing in continental Europe, unlike California where it was
developed.

Also, to quote:

"The trouble was, precision was another Norden myth. From 20,000 feet,
2/3 of American bombs fell 1/5 of a mile or more from their targets --
even with the best of bombsights.

Meanwhile, the bombsight itself had been reclassified from secret to
merely confidential two years before Lang's infamy. In 1942 it was
downgraded to restricted, the lowest classification.

By then we were switching to the English tactic of saturation bombing. A
bomber armada flew over a city. The lead plane signaled the drop and
they pulverized everything below -- hoping to catch occasional military
targets in the general carnage."

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1004.htm
--
Moving things in still pictures!

®i©ardo wrote:

No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s
delivered their bombs very accurately for that period.


But when it came to the crunch?

Don't forget that the initial Dresden raid was supposed to have been
flown by the Americans but they cried off because of bad weather, so
the RAF stepped into the gap and played the lead role. American
"precision" bombing in that same campaign also saw the Americans bomb
Prague by mistake, although I don't know how accurately they did
that. It certainly upset the Russians, who were in residence by that
time!
Essentially the Norden bomb sight worked only in clear skies - not an
everyday thing in continental Europe, unlike California where it was
developed.


That's what I said.



Also, to quote:

"The trouble was, precision was another Norden myth. From 20,000 feet,
2/3 of American bombs fell 1/5 of a mile or more from their targets --
even with the best of bombsights.


Which was very good compared to RAF night bombing accuracy.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
®i©ardo wrote:
No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s
delivered their bombs very accurately for that period.


But when it came to the crunch?

Don't forget that the initial Dresden raid was supposed to have been
flown by the Americans but they cried off because of bad weather, so
the RAF stepped into the gap and played the lead role. American
"precision" bombing in that same campaign also saw the Americans bomb
Prague by mistake, although I don't know how accurately they did
that. It certainly upset the Russians, who were in residence by that
time!
Essentially the Norden bomb sight worked only in clear skies - not an
everyday thing in continental Europe, unlike California where it was
developed.


That's what I said.


Also, to quote:

"The trouble was, precision was another Norden myth. From 20,000 feet,
2/3 of American bombs fell 1/5 of a mile or more from their targets --
even with the best of bombsights.


Which was very good compared to RAF night bombing accuracy.



Not at all. If their bomb sights were useless because of local weather
conditions their accuracy was as good/bad as that of the RAF, as the
USAAF's H2X radar was somewhat imprecise.

Over Japan the USAAF just abandoned "precision" daylight bombing altogether.

http://www.tamblyn.net/academic_pres...assignment.htm

--
Moving things in still pictures!

®i©ardo wrote:

Not at all. If their bomb sights were useless because of local weather
conditions their accuracy was as good/bad as that of the RAF, as the
USAAF's H2X radar was somewhat imprecise.


Right. When the weather was poor USAAF bombing accuracy was similar to the
RAF, when the weather was good it was significantly better than the RAF.