Sky High Av gas **** you off?

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:15:02 GMT, wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

On average around the world, sunlight delivers a barrel of oil of
energy on every square meter of land every year. At $100 a barrel,
a 100m2 roof is receiving $10,000/yr of energy - a quarter of a
million dollars over 25 years. With photovoltaic systems we can
convert up to 20% of this raw energy directly into electricity.

Electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.


Perhaps not directly, but if the GM Volt* (and hybrid autos) is(are)
successful, the replacement of the current crop of gas guzzling SUVs
with alternatively powered automobiles could eventually impact oil
consumption in the US due, not only to their not using (as much)
petroleum, but also due to their increased efficiency (MPG). Add to
that the use of solar energy to fuel them, thus replacing/reducing the
current requirement for petroleum.


This is just apples and oranges arm waving.

You've got to look beyond the obvious to appreciate how solar power
can impact oil consumption. If hybrid automobiles provide higher MPG
ratings, and solar power spins electric meters backwards, I would
anticipate petroleum consumption to be reduced. Don't you agree?


The other minor problem no one cares to address is that contrary to
what most people think, peak electricity demand is typically after
sundown.


We are both California residents. As I recall, the rolling
blackouts** of the beginning of this century occurred during the day
primarily due to air conditioning loads. Are you able to cite any
statistics that support your assertion that "peak electricity demand
is typically after sundown?" I can see where illumination loads might
increase, but other loads should be significantly reduced at night,
IMO.





* http://gm-volt.com/
Q: How many miles per gallon will the Chevy Volt get?
A: A bit of a trick question. For the first 40 miles it will get
infinite mpg, because no gas will be burned. When the generator
starts, the car will get an equivalent of 50 mpg thereafter. One
can calculate the average mpg per for any length drive starting
with a full battery: Total MPG = 50xM/(M-40)

Q: What is the cost of operation of the car
A: With current average U.S. electric rates of ~10 cents/kwh it
should cost 80 cents to drive for the first 40 miles, and then 50
mpg thereafter using gasoline (market rate).



** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling...out#California

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:15:02 GMT, wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

On average around the world, sunlight delivers a barrel of oil of
energy on every square meter of land every year. At $100 a barrel,
a 100m2 roof is receiving $10,000/yr of energy - a quarter of a
million dollars over 25 years. With photovoltaic systems we can
convert up to 20% of this raw energy directly into electricity.

Electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.


Perhaps not directly, but if the GM Volt* (and hybrid autos) is(are)
successful, the replacement of the current crop of gas guzzling SUVs
with alternatively powered automobiles could eventually impact oil
consumption in the US due, not only to their not using (as much)
petroleum, but also due to their increased efficiency (MPG). Add to
that the use of solar energy to fuel them, thus replacing/reducing the
current requirement for petroleum.

If and eventually are a long way away.

Roughly 40% of US vehicles are over 10 years old; factor that into
the projection of how long it will take before electric cars make
a difference in anything once they actually exist.

This is just apples and oranges arm waving.

You've got to look beyond the obvious to appreciate how solar power
can impact oil consumption. If hybrid automobiles provide higher MPG
ratings, and solar power spins electric meters backwards, I would
anticipate petroleum consumption to be reduced. Don't you agree?

Once again, electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.

Spinning electric meters backwards won't reduce oil consumption.

The other minor problem no one cares to address is that contrary to
what most people think, peak electricity demand is typically after
sundown.


We are both California residents. As I recall, the rolling
blackouts** of the beginning of this century occurred during the day
primarily due to air conditioning loads. Are you able to cite any
statistics that support your assertion that "peak electricity demand
is typically after sundown?" I can see where illumination loads might
increase, but other loads should be significantly reduced at night,
IMO.

Like I said, the reality is contrary to what most people think.

For about 9 months out of the year, peak electric demand occurs at
about 9PM and DST doesn't change that fact.

For about 3 months out of the year, i.e. the hot part, you get two
peaks, one at mid afternoon and another at about 9 PM.

Here's the current demand for California:

http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html

Here's some historical data:

http://mail.specsol.com/~jimp/caiso.php

When the weather starts hitting around 80, the daytime hump picks
up.

When the weather starts hitting the 90's, the hump gets huge and
the blackouts occur.

This is consistant for all power producers in the first world and not
unique to either California or the United States.

So, how many solar plants can one put up before you have idle plants
for 8 to 9 months out of the year and where do you get power at night?

And once again, electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.


--
Jim Pennino

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On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 23:25:03 GMT, wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:15:02 GMT, wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

This is just apples and oranges arm waving.

You've got to look beyond the obvious to appreciate how solar power
can impact oil consumption. If hybrid automobiles provide higher MPG
ratings, and solar power spins electric meters backwards, I would
anticipate petroleum consumption to be reduced. Don't you agree?

Once again, electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.

Spinning electric meters backwards won't reduce oil consumption.


To the extent solar energy is used to power automobiles, I would
expect it to displace gasoline.



For about 9 months out of the year, peak electric demand occurs at
about 9PM and DST doesn't change that fact.

For about 3 months out of the year, i.e. the hot part, you get two
peaks, one at mid afternoon and another at about 9 PM.

Here's the current demand for California:

http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html

Here's some historical data:

http://mail.specsol.com/~jimp/caiso.php


Many thanks for that. Indeed it seems that a very significant
proportion of the energy consumed occurs in the evening as you stated.


When the weather starts hitting around 80, the daytime hump picks
up.

When the weather starts hitting the 90's, the hump gets huge and
the blackouts occur.

This is consistant for all power producers in the first world and not
unique to either California or the United States.

So, how many solar plants can one put up before you have idle plants
for 8 to 9 months out of the year

I see no reason for idle solar generating facilities located in the
Mojave Desert during any part of the year. However, it appears that
SoCal Edison prefers solar generation occur a little closer to where
its needed:


http://www.forbes.com/businesswire/f...7005373r1.html
Southern California Edison Launches Nation's Largest Solar Panel
Installation
03.27.08, 3:02 AM ET
Southern California Edison (SCE) today launched the nation's
largest solar cell installation, a project that will place 250
megawatts of advanced photovoltaic generating technology on 65
million square feet of roofs of Southern California commercial
buildings - enough power to serve approximately 162,000 homes.

"These are the kinds of big ideas we need to meet California's
long-term energy and climate change goals," said Governor
Schwarzenegger. "I urge others to follow in their footsteps. If
commercial buildings statewide partnered with utilities to put
this solar technology on their rooftops, it would set off a huge
wave of renewable energy growth."

"This project will turn two square miles of unused commercial
rooftops into advanced solar generating stations," said John E.
Bryson, Edison International chairman and CEO. "We hope to have
the first solar rooftops in service by August. The sunlight power
will be available to meet our largest challenge - peak load
demands on the hottest days."

SCE's renewable energy project was prompted by recent advances in
solar technology that reduce the cost of installed photovoltaic
gen...

The utility plans to begin installation work immediately on
commercial roofs in Southern California's Inland Empire, San
Bernardino and Riverside counties, the nation's fastest growing
urban region.

"These new solar stations, which we will be installing at a rate
of one megawatt a week, will provide a new source of clean energy,
directly in the fast-growing regions where we need it most," said
Bryson.

SCE sees numerous customer benefits from its new solar program,
among them locating the new generation in areas of growing
customer demand. And the clusters of solar modules SCE plans to
install will be connected directly to the nearest neighborhood
circuit, eliminating the need to build new transmission lines to
bring the power to customers. Additionally, solar units produce
the most power when customer usage is at its highest.


and where do you get power at night?

Wind, geothermal, hydro, and all the conventional sources, I suppose.

And once again, electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.

To the extent it can be made to replace petroleum products, I believe
it does.

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 23:25:03 GMT, wrote in
:


To the extent solar energy is used to power automobiles, I would
expect it to displace gasoline.

You can expect it all you want, but since there is no generally
available such thing in the real world right now, spinning electric
meters backwards won't reduce oil consumption.


I see no reason for idle solar generating facilities located in the
Mojave Desert during any part of the year. However, it appears that
SoCal Edison prefers solar generation occur a little closer to where
its needed:

If you build more capacity than the annual daily average, the facility
will be idle.

What do you do with electricity for which there is no demand?

Electricity in large amounts doesn't store that well. The only thing
that works is to pump water uphill when you have an excess and run
it back downhill through turbines later.

That takes lots of land that is significantly uphill to pull off.

And of course Edison is going to avoid the enourmous expense of
installing and maintaining transmission lines while they suck the
well of subsidies dry if they can.

Wind, geothermal, hydro, and all the conventional sources, I suppose.

The conventional sources are hydro, coal, nuclear, and natural gas
in no particular order.

And once again, electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.

To the extent it can be made to replace petroleum products, I believe
it does.

That extent in today's real world is basically zero.

Wish all you want.


--
Jim Pennino

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