Cost to earn a glider certificate?

There are no wasted flights; you can learn something from every one. No
two days are alike and the weather has to be figured out each day.

That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an instructor
into your log book before it is legal to solo. The efficiency is to carry
that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the list in
front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead of
time.

I had a student fly a two hour flight as his second flight after solo here
in the midwest. The next time he flew it was 16 minutes; he didn't sort
out the weather. You will have ups and downs in your whole career as a
glider pilot and that is what makes it interesting.

At 21:39 08 June 2008, Alan wrote:
In article "Vaughn Simon" writes:

"Tony Verhulst" wrote in message
m...
... your real question (IMHO) should be "what does it cost to
participate in
soaring?".

Well said! Since much of soaring is done solo anyhow, and much of
your
student flying is also solo, the cost to actually earn your certificate
is not
terribly relevant. Flying is flying...certificate or not, and flying
is
a
wonderful thing.

Vaughn (CFIG)

Much the same was true when I got my power license -- flying is
flying.

However, now I wonder about what sort of flights to expect while
getting
the rating -- how many useful flights and how many wasted ones? Does it
really
take 15 to 20 flights of dual before solo? What is covered in those,
and
how
can one take control of the process to make it more efficient?

How many more dual before "high solo", and how many more before the
check ride?

How many of these flights actually get into lift and give a good
learning period,
and how many are just a ride back down from release?

yes, I know, "ask the local group's instructors". I am asking here
first so I
am better equipped to evaluate their answers when I do so.


Alan

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
snip

That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an instructor
into your log book before it is legal to solo. The efficiency is to carry
that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the list in
front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead of
time.

snip

Nyal.. would you care to list all 17 items?

BT

Anyone have a rough idea of the amount to budget to earn a glider
certificate?

The glider training closest to me appears to be at this club:

http://www.kpflight.com/coburg.htm

simply, it will cost you at least $2000

In detail, you added you were married, so $4000, after equal payback to the one who cannot be argued with.

In fact, you will get to the point when you want your own glider, after having happily spent tens of thousands on:

Fuel and vehicle expenses to and from your club
accomodation expenses whilst flying, quadruple those costs for the wife to accompany you
beer and food expenses for yourself, your crew and your new friends
better sunglasses, hats, shoes and clothes
books, maps, PDAs, software and upgrades
tow fees, tug pilots beer
bribe money for officials at contests
donations to the club to support newbies after you

Yep, tens of thousands of dollars

but you will spend it happily, and by then, gliders will be even better, and even more expensive


On the up side, when you are rugged up by the day nurse and sipping your tea with your new mates, all in wheelchairs at the wrinkly home, some 40 years away, one of your comrades will bring up a long conversation about how they had always wanted to try gliding.

You will smile, add your many hours of interesting experience in gliders to the conversation but they wont ever be able to understand.
Not ever, their option has passed and words alone cannot explain our sport
You alone will have done it, you alone went the extra step.
You will be the most content person in the conversation.
It cost you tens of thousands, you will find the money, trust me.

The cost is not the problem, the lack of time is.
You have to balance your spare time with the ones you love, your other passions and true relaxation.
One day, like everyone, you will die.

At that time, you will have not done enough gliding


bagger

On Jun 8, 4:48*pm, "BT" wrote:
"Nyal Williams" wrote in message

...

snip

That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an instructor
into your log book before it is legal to solo. *The efficiency is to carry
that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the list in
front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead of
time.

snip

Nyal.. would you care to list all 17 items?

BT

The list of items is found in the Student Pilot section of the FAR
part 61.87(i) 1-19

(i) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a glider.
A student pilot who is receiving training for a glider rating or
privileges must receive and log flight training for the following
maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight
planning, preparation, aircraft systems, and, if appropriate,
powerplant operations;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups, if applicable;

(3) Launches, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions, if
applicable;

(5) Airport traffic patterns, including entry procedures;

(6) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;

(7) Descents with and without turns using high and low drag
configurations;

(8) Flight at various airspeeds;

(9) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(10) Ground reference maneuvers, if applicable;

(11) Inspection of towline rigging and review of signals and release
procedures, if applicable;

(12) Aerotow, ground tow, or self-launch procedures;

(13) Procedures for disassembly and assembly of the glider;

(14) Stall entry, stall, and stall recovery;

(15) Straight glides, turns, and spirals;

(16) Landings, including normal and crosswind;

(17) Slips to a landing;

(18) Procedures and techniques for thermalling; and

(19) Emergency operations, including towline break procedures.



Mike

There are two critically important things, in ensuring that your
training flights are not "wasted":

1) Your preparation. Prepare ahead of time. Most clubs are really
not that good at the ground-instruction side of things - so you have
to do a lot of the leg-work on this yourself. Be self-motivated, find
good books and DVDs on transitioning to gliders and learning to fly
gliders. Read / Watch them, and really try to absorb all the
knowledge from them that you can.

2) Your instructor(s). Many clubs have rotating duty cycles or
volunteer instructors that come out approximately "whenever they feel
like it" Their volunteerism is commendable, but it makes for a slower
training system because you will be repeating maneuvers to different
instructors (so that they confirm you know your stuff). Try to work
with just a few instructors - be respectful but aggressive in getting
just one or two scheduled to fly with you as much as possible. In my
club I flew with 6 (!!) instructors in my first few months; as a
result it took 20 flights to go solo (transitioning from PPL SEL) when
it should have taken 10. Once I *was* solo, none of the instructors
wanted to prep me for my ride. So I went to a commercial operation to
finish up and take my checkride, and got through in 3 days and only 7
or 8 flights (including my checkride flights).

Regarding flight length: Its hard to swallow this when you're eager
to soar - but thermalling and long flight times are NOT something to
aim for early on. Getting the instructor in the back seat, running
through the maneuvers (and getting comfortable with them) is the
hardest thing to schedule. More short flights is better than fewer
long ones - even if it costs a few $$ more for those extra tows.
Remember that once you're signed off to go solo, you can practice
thermalling and try to truly soar as much as you want (even before you
get your checkride)... With only a single person in the cockpit,
you'll also find that your glider will climb better and turn better -
so thermalling will be more enjoyable at that point, too!

Finally, one more tip: If you're computer-savvy, there's a great
flight simulator for soaring. Its called "Condor". It is best if you
have the basics of glider controls and aerotowing under your belt
before you try it, but once you're to the point where you want to
practice thermalling, cross-country flight, ridge-soaring, and other
advanced techniques, Condor is the way to go! But again, get
comfortable with gliding flight and towing first.

Take care,

--Noel
P.S. Sorry, there's one more thing some clubs are really bad at:
Teaching new members the non-soaring side of operations! Not only do
these duties help the club, but they help pass the time between
flights and help YOU be a better pilot (no joke!). Go out and have
someone teach you how to wing-run. You'll get to see a ton of
different take-off techniques over the course of a few hours (some of
which you may make a note to try - or avoid!); and you'll learn a lot
about safety on both ends of the line. Also, helping rig and pre-
flight other gliders (club and non-club) can be a great learning
experience. Be respectful of people's equipment and NEVER touch,
unless you're given permission. Seeing different equipment designs,
pre-flight techniques, assembly methods, and talking with other pilots
will help you learn things - some things you won't even realize you've
learned until later! One of the reasons we fly as "clubs" is because
gliding is really an all-day venture - there's a lot of value AND
enjoyment in the camaraderie and in being part of the entire operation
- not just getting "stick-time" and then going home... Have fun!

Someone beat me to it, and there are 19 of them -- i goofed.

To reiterate: print it out, keep it with your logbook, and urge your
instructor to focus on missing items, and to USE THE LANGUAGE OF THE CFRs
in your logbook.

At 23:48 08 June 2008, BT wrote:

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
snip

That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an
instructor
into your log book before it is legal to solo. The efficiency is to
carry
that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the list
in
front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead of
time.

snip

Nyal.. would you care to list all 17 items?

BT

I figured that was what the answer would be.. and yes.. 19..
but all 19 need not be listed for which flight they occured on. "xxyz
taught to profiency on flight IAW FAR 61.87 yadayada yada
That's what a training folder is for.
Only the endorsement that states that ground (academic) and flight training
of the items in 61.87(c)(l) have been completed.
SSF had a great sample shown below, also 61.65E had copies of all
endorsements required, and there are not 19 training endorsements for the
glider student pilot.

STUDENT PILOT

Aeronautical Knowledge - FAR 61.87(b)

I certify that M _____________ has satisfactorily completed a pre-solo
written examination as required by FAR 61.87(b) demonstrating knowledge of
the portions of FAR Part 61 and Part 91 applicable to student pilots,
airspace rules and procedures, and the flight characteristics and
operational limitations for a (Glider Type), and that I have reviewed all
incorrect answers with him.



Pre-Solo Flight Training - FARs 61.31(j) and §61.87 (c)

(Aerotow)

I certify that M ___________ has received the instruction required by FAR
61.31(j) and FAR 61.87(c) and (i) in a (Glider Type) and that he has
satisfactorily accomplished ground and flight training in aerotow procedures
and operations and proficiency therein, has demonstrated proficiency in the
applicable maneuvers and procedures included in FAR 61.87(i), and has
demonstrated adequate knowledge of flight rules listed in FAR Part 91 and is
competent to make safe solo flights in that glider; provided that each such
flight is carried out when the surface wind (steady or gusting) does not
exceed ___ kts and the crosswind component does not exceed ___ kts. This
approval is valid for the ___ days immediately following this endorsement
and provided such flights are conducted entirely within gliding range of the
takeoff point.

Note: Ground and Self-Launch endorsement samples are found in the
"Additional Endorsements" section of this publication.



BT

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
Someone beat me to it, and there are 19 of them -- i goofed.

To reiterate: print it out, keep it with your logbook, and urge your
instructor to focus on missing items, and to USE THE LANGUAGE OF THE CFRs
in your logbook.

At 23:48 08 June 2008, BT wrote:

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
snip

That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an
instructor
into your log book before it is legal to solo. The efficiency is to
carry
that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the list
in
front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead of
time.

snip

Nyal.. would you care to list all 17 items?

BT

Alan wrote:
Much the same was true when I got my power license -- flying is flying.

However, now I wonder about what sort of flights to expect while getting
the rating -- how many useful flights and how many wasted ones? Does it really
take 15 to 20 flights of dual before solo?

It took me 25, which was considered to be rather unusually low. However I
was not a transition pilot, but ab initio.

What is covered in those, and how
can one take control of the process to make it more efficient?

How many more dual before "high solo", and how many more before the check ride?

How many of these flights actually get into lift and give a good learning period,
and how many are just a ride back down from release?

For most training flights, the amount of time spent in the air is not all
that important. Learning how to handle the glider doesn't take all that
long. Even things like stall recovery, unusual attidutes, etc. don't
require that many flights. Learning how to find and work lift is always
good, of course, but you don't strictly need much for solo. What you do
need is to be able to take off, tow, and land reliably, and that's where
much of the pre-solo practice goes. You get to practice them the same
amount on each flight no matter how much lift you encounter, so this has
little influence on the number of training flights required.

When I was learning, I'd come to the airport any time the weather looked
flyable. If there was lift, great. If not, I didn't really care. Now I'm
much more careful about evaluating the weather beforehand to see if it's
going to be worth my while. Lift is much more important for having fun
than it is for learning.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant!

I have a smile on my face from spending yesterday evening with my new
flight computer on the dining room table. Experimenting with loading it
up with waypoints and airspace and driving it around a task with my
laptop. I will have that grin all day and none of my work colleagues will
have the slightest inkling of why and where I have been in my imagination
already before I go and do it for real.

You are right, there is never enough time.

Gavin

At 23:55 08 June 2008, bagmaker wrote:

-
Anyone have a rough idea of the amount to budget to earn a glider
certificate?

The glider training closest to me appears to be at this club:

http://www.kpflight.com/coburg.htm-

simply, it will cost you at least $2000

In detail, you added you were married, so $4000, after equal payback to
the one who cannot be argued with.

In fact, you will get to the point when you want your own glider, after
having happily spent tens of thousands on:

Fuel and vehicle expenses to and from your club
accomodation expenses whilst flying, quadruple those costs for the wife
to accompany you
beer and food expenses for yourself, your crew and your new friends
better sunglasses, hats, shoes and clothes
books, maps, PDAs, software and upgrades
tow fees, tug pilots beer
bribe money for officials at contests
donations to the club to support newbies after you

Yep, tens of thousands of dollars

but you will spend it happily, and by then, gliders will be even
better, and even more expensive


On the up side, when you are rugged up by the day nurse and sipping
your tea with your new mates, all in wheelchairs at the wrinkly home,
some 40 years away, one of your comrades will bring up a long
conversation about how they had always wanted to try gliding.

You will smile, add your many hours of interesting experience in
gliders to the conversation but they wont ever be able to understand.
Not ever, their option has passed and words alone cannot explain our
sport
You alone will have done it, you alone went the extra step.
You will be the most content person in the conversation.
It cost you tens of thousands, you will find the money, trust me.

The cost is not the problem, the lack of time is.
You have to balance your spare time with the ones you love, your other
passions and true relaxation.
One day, like everyone, you will die.

At that time, you will have not done enough gliding


bagger




--
bagmaker

My recommendation to have these items in the log book is because an
extremely well-known examiner looks for these specific items when he
examines a student for a certificate.

One might be well-trained and slide by without these specific entries, but
they will smooth the process and they will also protect the instructor
against future difficulties.

At 03:57 09 June 2008, BT wrote:
I figured that was what the answer would be.. and yes.. 19..
but all 19 need not be listed for which flight they occured on. "xxyz
taught to profiency on flight IAW FAR 61.87 yadayada yada
That's what a training folder is for.
Only the endorsement that states that ground (academic) and flight
training
of the items in 61.87(c)(l) have been completed.
SSF had a great sample shown below, also 61.65E had copies of all
endorsements required, and there are not 19 training endorsements for the

glider student pilot.

STUDENT PILOT

Aeronautical Knowledge - FAR 61.87(b)

I certify that M _____________ has satisfactorily completed a pre-solo
written examination as required by FAR 61.87(b) demonstrating knowledge
of

the portions of FAR Part 61 and Part 91 applicable to student pilots,
airspace rules and procedures, and the flight characteristics and
operational limitations for a (Glider Type), and that I have reviewed all

incorrect answers with him.



Pre-Solo Flight Training - FARs 61.31(j) and §61.87 (c)

(Aerotow)

I certify that M ___________ has received the instruction required by FAR

61.31(j) and FAR 61.87(c) and (i) in a (Glider Type) and that he has
satisfactorily accomplished ground and flight training in aerotow
procedures
and operations and proficiency therein, has demonstrated proficiency in
the
applicable maneuvers and procedures included in FAR 61.87(i), and has
demonstrated adequate knowledge of flight rules listed in FAR Part 91
and
is
competent to make safe solo flights in that glider; provided that each
such
flight is carried out when the surface wind (steady or gusting) does not

exceed ___ kts and the crosswind component does not exceed ___ kts. This

approval is valid for the ___ days immediately following this endorsement

and provided such flights are conducted entirely within gliding range of
the
takeoff point.

Note: Ground and Self-Launch endorsement samples are found in the
"Additional Endorsements" section of this publication.



BT

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
Someone beat me to it, and there are 19 of them -- i goofed.

To reiterate: print it out, keep it with your logbook, and urge your
instructor to focus on missing items, and to USE THE LANGUAGE OF THE
CFRs
in your logbook.

At 23:48 08 June 2008, BT wrote:

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
snip

That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an
instructor
into your log book before it is legal to solo. The efficiency is to
carry
that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the
list
in
front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead
of
time.

snip

Nyal.. would you care to list all 17 items?

BT