2 recent incidents

How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work?

I think this is a reasonably valid point. There HAVE been a number of
people who have misunderstood this signal.

Perhaps something else would be better. The question is what signal
would be a good replacement. You could have flashing lights on the
towplane, perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. The only thing is
you'd probably have to install two lights. Say one yellow and one red.

Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
quick we'll keep going. Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.

If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
releasing when they didn't have to.

As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of
high output LEDs. When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you
have a single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in
concept, but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). That way
the glider pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and
they stay "on" for the duration of the tow. If either the "warning" or
"get off" switches are selected in the cockpit then only the
corresponding "color" is then visible to the glider pilot. Perhaps with
the "warning" being a steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to
help with fast recognition and a sense of urgency.

Other thoughts?

On Jun 25, 6:07*pm, Gary Emerson wrote:
How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder

waggle does NOT work?

I think this is a reasonably valid point. *There HAVE been a number of
people who have misunderstood this signal.

Perhaps something else would be better. *The question is what signal
would be a good replacement. *You could have flashing lights on the
towplane, perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. *The only thing is
you'd probably have to install two lights. *Say one yellow and one red.

Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
quick we'll keep going. *Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.

If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
releasing when they didn't have to.

As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of
high output LEDs. *When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you
have a single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in
concept, but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). *That way
the glider pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and
they stay "on" for the duration of the tow. *If either the "warning" or
"get off" switches are selected in the cockpit then only the
corresponding "color" is then visible to the glider pilot. *Perhaps with
the "warning" being a steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to
help with fast recognition and a sense of urgency.

Other thoughts?

? We need less complication. It is the 21st century, a radio should
not be out of the question. "glider on tow check spoilers" is pretty
straightforward. If that does not work and the glider cannot tow
higher then fan the rudder.

Darryl

"Gary Emerson" wrote in message
...
How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work?

I think this is a reasonably valid point. There HAVE been a number of
people who have misunderstood this signal.

Perhaps something else would be better. The question is what signal would
be a good replacement. You could have flashing lights on the towplane,
perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. The only thing is you'd probably
have to install two lights. Say one yellow and one red.

Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
quick we'll keep going. Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.

If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
releasing when they didn't have to.

As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of high
output LEDs. When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you have a
single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in concept,
but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). That way the glider
pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and they stay "on"
for the duration of the tow. If either the "warning" or "get off"
switches are selected in the cockpit then only the corresponding "color"
is then visible to the glider pilot. Perhaps with the "warning" being a
steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to help with fast
recognition and a sense of urgency.

Other thoughts?

The tuggie should condiser if a signal is needed. If they are climbing in
spite of open spoilers the best option is to wait until the glider could
release and land safely before wagging the rudder. A premature rudder wag
may have caused some of these incidents.

I wouldn't neccessarilly say radio is the simplest option. If a pilot can't
remember to close the spoilers, or notice that they are open, could he
operate a radio and fly a glider at the same time?

High brightness LED's are a really simple idea. Some tuggies could use them
as turn signals.

Bill D

On Jun 25, 8:02*pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Gary Emerson" wrote in message

...



How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work?

I think this is a reasonably valid point. *There HAVE been a number of
people who have misunderstood this signal.

Perhaps something else would be better. *The question is what signal would
be a good replacement. *You could have flashing lights on the towplane,
perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. *The only thing is you'd probably
have to install two lights. *Say one yellow and one red.

Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
quick we'll keep going. *Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.

If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
releasing when they didn't have to.

As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of high
output LEDs. *When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you have a
single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in concept,
but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). *That way the glider
pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and they stay "on"
for the duration of the tow. *If either the "warning" or "get off"
switches are selected in the cockpit then only the corresponding "color"
is then visible to the glider pilot. *Perhaps with the "warning" being a
steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to help with fast
recognition and a sense of urgency.

Other thoughts?

The tuggie should condiser if a signal is needed. *If they are climbing in
spite of open spoilers the best option is to wait until the glider could
release and land safely before wagging the rudder. *A premature rudder wag
may have caused some of these incidents.

I wouldn't neccessarilly say radio is the simplest option. *If a pilot can't
remember to close the spoilers, or notice that they are open, could he
operate a radio and fly a glider at the same time?

High brightness LED's are a really simple idea. *Some tuggies could use them
as turn signals.

Bill D

Exactly, but this was a two place ship and may have been at high
density altitudes. . The glider pilot does not need to operate the
radio, he just has to listen. Yes he needs to be tuned to the right
frequency and have the volume up, etc. That's what preflight
checklists and radio checks are for, and yes people will still get
this wrong. But if the glider radio is not working then the rudder
waggle can be used and ultimately if necessary a rock off or rope
guillotine/release (again preferably at altitude).

BTW that BFR (or spring checkout) I mentioned should involve pulling
the spoilers open on tow at altitude, and maybe different tow speeds,
and just leaving them flapping around as well to see what they do.
This will show what it feels like and you get to experience the radio
call/signals from the tow plane that result.

I've only had spoilers pop open on a DG-1000S on tow, hit a sharp bump
at a few hundred feet and they popped (not properly closed no doubt by
yours truly) the Piggott hook did its job and the noise of the
spoilers vibrating up and down gets your attention. For Piggott hook
equipped gliders I think it is worth demonstrating this as well during
a BFR/spring checkout.

Darryl

On Jun 25, 11:33 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jun 25, 8:02 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:



"Gary Emerson" wrote in message

.. .

How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work?

I think this is a reasonably valid point. There HAVE been a number of
people who have misunderstood this signal.

Perhaps something else would be better. The question is what signal would
be a good replacement. You could have flashing lights on the towplane,
perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. The only thing is you'd probably
have to install two lights. Say one yellow and one red.

Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
quick we'll keep going. Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.

If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
releasing when they didn't have to.

As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of high
output LEDs. When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you have a
single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in concept,
but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). That way the glider
pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and they stay "on"
for the duration of the tow. If either the "warning" or "get off"
switches are selected in the cockpit then only the corresponding "color"
is then visible to the glider pilot. Perhaps with the "warning" being a
steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to help with fast
recognition and a sense of urgency.

Other thoughts?

The tuggie should condiser if a signal is needed. If they are climbing in
spite of open spoilers the best option is to wait until the glider could
release and land safely before wagging the rudder. A premature rudder wag
may have caused some of these incidents.

I wouldn't neccessarilly say radio is the simplest option. If a pilot can't
remember to close the spoilers, or notice that they are open, could he
operate a radio and fly a glider at the same time?

High brightness LED's are a really simple idea. Some tuggies could use them
as turn signals.

Bill D

Exactly, but this was a two place ship and may have been at high
density altitudes. . The glider pilot does not need to operate the
radio, he just has to listen. Yes he needs to be tuned to the right
frequency and have the volume up, etc. That's what preflight
checklists and radio checks are for, and yes people will still get
this wrong. But if the glider radio is not working then the rudder
waggle can be used and ultimately if necessary a rock off or rope
guillotine/release (again preferably at altitude).

BTW that BFR (or spring checkout) I mentioned should involve pulling
the spoilers open on tow at altitude, and maybe different tow speeds,
and just leaving them flapping around as well to see what they do.
This will show what it feels like and you get to experience the radio
call/signals from the tow plane that result.

I've only had spoilers pop open on a DG-1000S on tow, hit a sharp bump
at a few hundred feet and they popped (not properly closed no doubt by
yours truly) the Piggott hook did its job and the noise of the
spoilers vibrating up and down gets your attention. For Piggott hook
equipped gliders I think it is worth demonstrating this as well during
a BFR/spring checkout.

Darryl



"Waggling the rudder” signal, like any other “secondary” signal is
perfectly OK.
THE PROBLEM most of those "absent minded" glider pilots have, is NOT
KNOWING a most important signal: The “Wave Off" signal. In my old
country, I was taught to release from tow plane only when I was rock
off. And only then. Period. As a result, I had a chance to see that
signal every time I took a tow. Hundreds times. I know that signal
very well. And to be safe you have to know this signal very well.
Practice, my young friends. What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off
the gliders at the end of the tow? Every day for practice…and once in
a lifetime for safety.
rrk

What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off the gliders at the end of the tow?

Wrong is that I, the glider pilot, want to decide where to be towed and
when to release. Because I, the glider pilot, am in the air without an
engine after the release. No tuggie, no matter how experienced he may
be, will ever tell me when and where to release.

On Jun 26, 8:20*am, John Smith wrote:
What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off the gliders at the end of the tow?

Wrong is that I, the glider pilot, want to decide where to be towed and
when to release. Because I, the glider pilot, am in the air without an
engine after the release. No tuggie, no matter how experienced he may
be, will ever tell me when and where to release.

This attitude terrifies me as a tow pilot.
If the tug pilot waves you off- GET OFF NOW! You do not know if there
is an
emergency. If you don't want to be waved off in lift, discuss with tug
pilot, and his boss, if
you wish, later.
A tow pilot with a failing airplane does not have enough time or hands
to deal with a
stubborn glider pilot.
Been There- done That
UH

What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off the gliders at the end of the tow?

Wrong is that I, the glider pilot, want to decide where to be towed and
when to release. Because I, the glider pilot, am in the air without an
....

This attitude terrifies me as a tow pilot.
If the tug pilot waves you off- GET OFF NOW! You do not know if there
is an emergency. If you don't want to be waved off in lift, discuss with tug
....

You can misunderstand everything if you really want to, can't you.
Somebody suggested to wave off the glider at the end of *every* tow. My
answer was that in a *normal* tow, it's the glider pilot who says where
and how hight the tow goes. Period. Because he will have to deal with
the release and because he will pay the tow.

Of course *in an emergency*, the tow pilot has every right to wave me
off. More precisely, in a true emergency, I wouldn't even expect him to
wave me off but rather to just release his end of the rope.

John Smith wrote:
What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off the gliders at the end of the
tow?

Wrong is that I, the glider pilot, want to decide where to be towed and
when to release. Because I, the glider pilot, am in the air without an
engine after the release. No tuggie, no matter how experienced he may
be, will ever tell me when and where to release.

I can promise you, if, I were towing you, and you did not get off when I
waved you off. You would be wearing the rope. I have done it before,
and I still have lots more rope available to me. Aside, from that, I
will normally take you where you want to go, but if, I want you gone,
You will be gone.

At 16:25 26 June 2008, R wrote:
John Smith wrote:
What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off the gliders at the end of the

tow?

Wrong is that I, the glider pilot, want to decide where to be towed and

when to release. Because I, the glider pilot, am in the air without an

engine after the release. No tuggie, no matter how experienced he may
be, will ever tell me when and where to release.

I can promise you, if, I were towing you, and you did not get off when I

waved you off. You would be wearing the rope. I have done it before,
and I still have lots more rope available to me. Aside, from that, I
will normally take you where you want to go, but if, I want you gone,
You will be gone.

The indignant responses from tow pilots are missing the original
point. The first post suggested that *every* tow should end with
the tug signaling the glider to release. That does seem to be
a poor idea in itself, since the wave off would then become an
expected, routine event, and glider pilots would be prone to
adopt the attitude that it really isn't an emergency signal, just
the tow pilot's opinion. And the glider pilot may decide he
wants to stay on for another 500 feet, or to get closer to the
ridge, or whatever.

The wave off shouldn't be routine, it should be used in a
serious situation, and it should be reacted to immediately.

Jim Beckman