Fake military guys & the Stolen Valor Act of 2005

On Aug 22, 8:39�am, "William Black"
wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message

...





On Aug 21, 10:38 pm, frank wrote:
On Aug 21, 2:33 pm, Tiger wrote: 'War Stories'
Have Some Facing Prison
August 18, 2008
The Oklahoman

John Smith said he was a Navy SEAL who was imprisoned in Vietnam after
his helicopter was shot down.

snip

What I don't understand are the politicians who do this. Had a guy in
South Texas, said he had MOH. Put it in his brochures, was caught. Can
we say stupid? Got jail time, lost his city elected job.

Wife knew a guy who didn't make it through basic, got out for the good
of the service. Goes around saying he's a Vietnam vet, hangs with
them. guess he's good enough to pass, but one of these days he's going
to get caught.

What burns me are all the ads in the local papers, wanting to buy
medals, decorations. I'm sure there are enough people who sell them.
But, jeez. Give them to the vet's high school for a wall of honor,
call the VFW or the Legion, contact the local historical society, but
sell them?

Is it just me, or am I too sensitive over this?

Well, I have played that game. Guy in local store said I looked like a
vet, had I ever been in Vietnam? I said "yes" about six hours total,
coming and going. He thought that was true of many others without the
caveat.

As a Brit I have some real problems with all this.

Why does anyone care?

If you 'plug in' to the ex-service system you'll certainly come into contact
with people who will know, �and there's no advantage in pretending you're
something you are not.

Back in this thread someone mentioned that someone pretended to be a MoH
winner.

Surely something like that would be exploded in seconds, �it's not as if
there are that many of them. �Certainly, �in the UK, �a VC winner would be
someone of note in the local community and someone claiming to be one who
nobody knew about would be liable to be checked out reasonably quickly.

What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
distinguished military career?

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, �like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Most of it is pathetic overreaching, like the Major in "Separate
Tables", with a few outright mental cases. But someone in a prominant
local or greater position--teachers, officials, politicians--seems
pathological. It's so easy to check, you'd have to be nuts to try and
fake it, particularly with any kind of front line unit or valor
decoration.
OTOH, I'm always interested in seeing how Vulcans and neocons with
Viet Nam draft birthdates handled that character check.

QUOTE
"tomcervo" wrote in message
...
On Aug 22, 8:39?am, "William Black"
wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message

...





On Aug 21, 10:38 pm, frank wrote:
On Aug 21, 2:33 pm, Tiger wrote: 'War Stories'
Have Some Facing Prison
August 18, 2008
The Oklahoman

John Smith said he was a Navy SEAL who was imprisoned in Vietnam after
his helicopter was shot down.

snip

What I don't understand are the politicians who do this. Had a guy in
South Texas, said he had MOH. Put it in his brochures, was caught. Can
we say stupid? Got jail time, lost his city elected job.

Wife knew a guy who didn't make it through basic, got out for the good
of the service. Goes around saying he's a Vietnam vet, hangs with
them. guess he's good enough to pass, but one of these days he's going
to get caught.

What burns me are all the ads in the local papers, wanting to buy
medals, decorations. I'm sure there are enough people who sell them.
But, jeez. Give them to the vet's high school for a wall of honor,
call the VFW or the Legion, contact the local historical society, but
sell them?

Is it just me, or am I too sensitive over this?

Well, I have played that game. Guy in local store said I looked like a
vet, had I ever been in Vietnam? I said "yes" about six hours total,
coming and going. He thought that was true of many others without the
caveat.

As a Brit I have some real problems with all this.

Why does anyone care?

If you 'plug in' to the ex-service system you'll certainly come into contact
with people who will know, ?and there's no advantage in pretending you're
something you are not.

Back in this thread someone mentioned that someone pretended to be a MoH
winner.

Surely something like that would be exploded in seconds, ?it's not as if
there are that many of them. ?Certainly, ?in the UK, ?a VC winner would be
someone of note in the local community and someone claiming to be one who
nobody knew about would be liable to be checked out reasonably quickly.

What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
distinguished military career?


Most of it is pathetic overreaching, like the Major in "Separate
Tables", with a few outright mental cases. But someone in a prominant
local or greater position--teachers, officials, politicians--seems
pathological. It's so easy to check, you'd have to be nuts to try and
fake it, particularly with any kind of front line unit or valor
decoration.
OTOH, I'm always interested in seeing how Vulcans and neocons with
Viet Nam draft birthdates handled that character check.
UNQUOTE

The main reason it is so hard to claim to have earned some medal you haven't
is because of the gazetting of awards: any claim is easily verfiable. My
experience with such caddish behaviour in the U.K. and Commonwealth is that it
usually a claim of service in something like the SAS, SASR or JTF2, all of
which are very taciturn when it comes to confirming or even denying someone's
membership.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

On Aug 22, 9:52*am, "Andrew Chaplin"
wrote:
QUOTE"tomcervo" wrote in message

...
On Aug 22, 8:39?am, "William Black"
wrote:



"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message

....

On Aug 21, 10:38 pm, frank wrote:
On Aug 21, 2:33 pm, Tiger wrote: 'War Stories'
Have Some Facing Prison
August 18, 2008
The Oklahoman

John Smith said he was a Navy SEAL who was imprisoned in Vietnam after
his helicopter was shot down.

snip

What I don't understand are the politicians who do this. Had a guy in
South Texas, said he had MOH. Put it in his brochures, was caught. Can
we say stupid? Got jail time, lost his city elected job.

Wife knew a guy who didn't make it through basic, got out for the good
of the service. Goes around saying he's a Vietnam vet, hangs with
them. guess he's good enough to pass, but one of these days he's going
to get caught.

What burns me are all the ads in the local papers, wanting to buy
medals, decorations. I'm sure there are enough people who sell them.
But, jeez. Give them to the vet's high school for a wall of honor,
call the VFW or the Legion, contact the local historical society, but
sell them?

Is it just me, or am I too sensitive over this?

Well, I have played that game. Guy in local store said I looked like a
vet, had I ever been in Vietnam? I said "yes" about six hours total,
coming and going. He thought that was true of many others without the
caveat.

As a Brit I have some real problems with all this.

Why does anyone care?

If you 'plug in' to the ex-service system you'll certainly come into contact
with people who will know, ?and there's no advantage in pretending you're
something you are not.

Back in this thread someone mentioned that someone pretended to be a MoH
winner.

Surely something like that would be exploded in seconds, ?it's not as if
there are that many of them. ?Certainly, ?in the UK, ?a VC winner would be
someone of note in the local community and someone claiming to be one who
nobody knew about would be liable to be checked out reasonably quickly.

What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
distinguished military career?

Most of it is pathetic overreaching, like the Major in "Separate
Tables", with a few outright mental cases. But someone in a prominant
local or greater position--teachers, officials, politicians--seems
pathological. It's so easy to check, you'd have to be nuts to try and
fake it, particularly with any kind of front line unit or valor
decoration.
OTOH, I'm always interested in seeing how Vulcans and neocons with
Viet Nam draft birthdates handled that character check.
UNQUOTE

The main reason it is so hard to claim to have earned some medal you haven't
is because of the gazetting of awards: any claim is easily verfiable. My
experience with such caddish behaviour in the U.K. and Commonwealth is that it
usually a claim of service in something like the SAS, SASR or JTF2, all of
which are very taciturn when it comes to confirming or even denying someone's
membership.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

True. I worked with a guy who was head North American test pilot. We
didn't find out until after he retired from NA and the B-1B program
that he was a test pilot on the Have Blue program (F-117 precursor).
Never talked about it, even after it was declassified somewhat. Was
almost a footnote in the standard retirement biography that was
brought up when serving punch and cake. Same with a lot in SF, SEALS,
other operations.

But, in the US, there is still a bit of I guess national shame over
how the Vietnam vet was treated. not that this has translated into a
decent fix of the VA and all the benefits and facilities, but
still... So, if you were in Vietnam, you were seen to have served
under adverse political conditions at home. With the later wars, there
is more and more acceptance of military service.

And, it does help in politics or public service, you can see it in the
national elections right now. In American history, saying you were a
Union vet and fought in the Civil War was a big badge of honor. Almost
made you a shoes in. GAR, Grand Army of the Republic was a national
organization of vets that were in Civil War that had annual parades,
gatherings, were always around for a good 50 or ever 60 years after
the Civil War, There is even newsreel footage of a 1921 encampment of
vets from both sides. There was an old political phrase, 'waving the
bloody shirt' where you would say you were wounded in Shiloh or some
other battle, get cheers, accolades and be elected into office.

I don't know if overseas there is this sort of emotional reaction that
you get in the US. From some of the posts, its more something you
don't brag about. But, we scatter over here. I can count a good five
or six places I've lived in the past dozen years, from one side of the
country to another. IF the town is small enough, then you know all the
local boys and families and how they were, but start getting a bit
larger town or city, its not as easy.

Hope this helps.

Oh yeah, officially, the Civil War is known as the War of Northern
Aggression. In more genteel society, The Recent Unpleasantness.

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 08:14:56 -0700 (PDT), frank
wrote:

What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
distinguished military career?

Unfortunately the US has evolved into a nation in which few of the
general population have ever served or even known anyone in the
military. The result is that someone can claim the outrageous and
easily pass for years as a hero of a war that no one cares much about.
There have been an incredible number of outrageous public officials
who have run for public office and been elected on totally fabricated
military records.

OTOH, I'm always interested in seeing how Vulcans and neocons with
Viet Nam draft birthdates handled that character check.
UNQUOTE

The current euphemism in favor is "Vietnam-era Veteran" which usually
means never left the States but was in a sort of uniform for a few
months during the period in question.

True. I worked with a guy who was head North American test pilot. We
didn't find out until after he retired from NA and the B-1B program
that he was a test pilot on the Have Blue program (F-117 precursor).
Never talked about it, even after it was declassified somewhat. Was
almost a footnote in the standard retirement biography that was
brought up when serving punch and cake. Same with a lot in SF, SEALS,
other operations.

That very secrecy is what many of the poseurs depend upon. They allude
to secret operations and clandestine organizations which have secured
their records from public scrutiny.

But, in the US, there is still a bit of I guess national shame over
how the Vietnam vet was treated. not that this has translated into a
decent fix of the VA and all the benefits and facilities, but
still... So, if you were in Vietnam, you were seen to have served
under adverse political conditions at home. With the later wars, there
is more and more acceptance of military service.

One of the most egregious I saw was in Colorado where a Veteran's day
celebration had Sen. Ben Campbell on stage with a guy in USAF
Colonel's uniform wearing an AF Cross, several Silver Stars and a
number of DFC's. He professed to have been a POW and escapee from
Hanoi as well as a fighter pilot hero.

He was blissfully unaware that sharing the stage was retired Navy
Captain Mike McGrath, former POW and then president of the Nam-POWs
who had never seen the guy before and quickly outed him.

And, it does help in politics or public service, you can see it in the
national elections right now. In American history, saying you were a
Union vet and fought in the Civil War was a big badge of honor.

The terminology was "waving the bloody jacket"--if you had been
wounded in the Civil War, you were most assuredly an election winner.

I don't know if overseas there is this sort of emotional reaction that
you get in the US. From some of the posts, its more something you
don't brag about. But, we scatter over here. I can count a good five
or six places I've lived in the past dozen years, from one side of the
country to another. IF the town is small enough, then you know all the
local boys and families and how they were, but start getting a bit
larger town or city, its not as easy.

Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.

Here's a good source for checking out POW claimers:

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1082.htm

The roster is incredibly long which demonstrates the magnitude of the
problem.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
www.thunderchief.org

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.

You miss my point.

1. Why do the fakers do it?

2. Why do people like the Shantags spend their lives looking for them?

While there may be some false glamour is the pretence it's surely only a
matter of time before they're exposed, and as for chasing them, don't
these people have a life? If you want to spend your time doing good works I
can think of several that are more rewarding.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

William Black ha scritto:


1. Why do the fakers do it?

2. Why do people like the Shantags spend their lives looking for them?

Another question: where one draw the line between posers and talltellers ?

I write from s.m.n. but I guess that also the people in rec.aviation.*
knew the old saying "sailor's story"........


Once here on the Rivista Marittima was an interesting article about the
perception of the number of sunken RN submarines, pointing out facts
like that in relatively shallow waters, the reflex wave of depth charges
came to the surface as a cigar-shaped rising of water whose in the heat
of action and/or limited light condition can easily taken for a capsized
submarine hull rising then sinking for all.

And also there was the pathethic case of the Commander Grosso, whose
misidentify CA's for BB's and different bearing angles for sinking
conditionsm ending in a double granting and double rewoking of Gold
Medals of Valor (an really exceptional case, esp. involving our highest
decoration)

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:42:44 +0100, "William Black"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .

Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.

You miss my point.

1. Why do the fakers do it?

For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
which they did not earn.

While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.

2. Why do people like the Shantags spend their lives looking for them?

While there may be some false glamour is the pretence it's surely only a
matter of time before they're exposed, and as for chasing them, don't
these people have a life? If you want to spend your time doing good works I
can think of several that are more rewarding.

Chuck is a retired Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam
experience. They got involved with the search for POW verifications
and became very active in the POW/MIA activities. Gradually they
drifted into the Stolen Valor research and have built a network of
sources that make them the recognized US experts in the business.

There is no money in it, obviously, but there is a deep sense of
satisfaction. Bringing these creeps to justice isn't quite as visceral
as punching their lights out, but it can be more effective in
derailing them in the long run.

Personally I still lean toward cutting off their buttons, ripping
their epaulets, breaking their saber over my knee and tossing them out
the gate...but that's just me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
www.thunderchief.org

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:31:53 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:42:44 +0100, "William Black"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
. ..

Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.

You miss my point.

1. Why do the fakers do it?

For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
which they did not earn.

While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.

Possibly, but bull****ters are more driven by the risk and the
desire to see if they can get away with it. Harry Frankfurt's "On
Bull****" has good insight. (It's a nice read.) Originally
published as an essay in Raritan, it is a book now. About $5 used
on Amazon.

Know your enemy


Peter Skelton

On Aug 23, 9:31�am, Ed Rasimus wrote:
Personally I still lean toward cutting off their buttons, ripping
their epaulets, breaking their saber over my knee and tossing them out
the gate...but that's just me.

1. They have NO buttons, epaulets or saber.
2. They'd probably get a similar perverse thrill out of the ceremony.

A pie in the face is more like it.

Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:42:44 +0100, "William Black"
wrote:

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.
You miss my point.

1. Why do the fakers do it?

For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
which they did not earn.

While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.
2. Why do people like the Shantags spend their lives looking for them?

While there may be some false glamour is the pretence it's surely only a
matter of time before they're exposed, and as for chasing them, don't
these people have a life? If you want to spend your time doing good works I
can think of several that are more rewarding.

Chuck is a retired Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam
experience. They got involved with the search for POW verifications
and became very active in the POW/MIA activities. Gradually they
drifted into the Stolen Valor research and have built a network of
sources that make them the recognized US experts in the business.

There is no money in it, obviously, but there is a deep sense of
satisfaction. Bringing these creeps to justice isn't quite as visceral
as punching their lights out, but it can be more effective in
derailing them in the long run.

Personally I still lean toward cutting off their buttons, ripping
their epaulets, breaking their saber over my knee and tossing them out
the gate...but that's just me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
www.thunderchief.org


I make a distinction between the guys who do it for fun like the
comedian Gallagher who used the line "I lost my hair in Viet Nam" and
the jerks who expect one to believe their stories for some sort of
personal gain.

Several years ago I came across a photograph of a man in USMC field
grade mess dress uniform being handcuffed and led away. I was disturbed
at the idea, but even more so when I found out he had been arrested for
impersonation.

I am not against selling or trading awards and decorations since
there are collectors out there, myself included. The Stolen Valour Act
means I can't sell or trade the Medal of Honour ribbon in my collection
and that I will never fill the blanks for the medals themselves. I do
understand why that part of the act was put in and feel that anyone
falsely claiming the award should be run through a virtual wood chipper.

Anyway, there I wuz in Pusan 1950 where I was a combat assault cook
making coffee in cubes......

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired