Economy Class

It was also
tried everywhere and called World Class!

And, unfortunately, it didn't work. Didn't work because of us - the pilots.
It's because if only we get a few hundreds of hrs. so we could appear in the
competition world, most of us want to fly gliders of more and more L/D. "Why
should I, THE PILOT with say 500 hrs. fly a bicycle like PW-5 with 30:1 or
something? I'm to good for that, I need 50:1 at least"

Maciek K.

On Jan 24, 6:59*am, "Maciek" wrote:
It was also
tried everywhere and called World Class!

And, unfortunately, it didn't work. Didn't work because of us - the pilots.
It's because if only we get a few hundreds of hrs. so we could appear in the
competition world, most of us want to fly gliders of more and more L/D. "Why
should I, THE PILOT with say 500 hrs. fly a bicycle like PW-5 with 30:1 or
something? I'm to good for that, I need 50:1 at least"

Maciek K.

If the glider selected hadn't looked like a "Smart Car", maybe I'd
have bought one.

-T8

On Jan 24, 6:51*am, wrote:
On Jan 24, 6:59*am, "Maciek" wrote:

It was also
tried everywhere and called World Class!

And, unfortunately, it didn't work. Didn't work because of us - the pilots.
It's because if only we get a few hundreds of hrs. so we could appear in the
competition world, most of us want to fly gliders of more and more L/D. "Why
should I, THE PILOT with say 500 hrs. fly a bicycle like PW-5 with 30:1 or
something? I'm to good for that, I need 50:1 at least"

Maciek K.

If the glider selected hadn't looked like a "Smart Car", maybe I'd
have bought one.

-T8

True, there are lots of cheap gliders, they're just used ones. The
contest for them is the Club or Sports Class. The glass is more than
half full.

If you want new, high performance racing gliders that are still
affordable, there's a way - but it's tricky.

Far more than any other factor, the cost of new gliders is determined
by the production run. Potentially, there are huge economies of scale
if the production run is large enough. Here's the tricky part; the
manufacturer has to know how long the run will be when he designs the
glider.

So, how would he know that? There has to be a "one-design" class that
guarantees a long run.

Where the World Class went wrong is the implicit assumption that cost
is most directly related to performance - intuitive, but wrong. If
the World Cass design had been 50:1, the class would have been heavily
subscribed and the production run would have been huge and the cost no
more than the PW-5.

...Potentially, there are huge economies of scale
if the production run is large enough...

Yeah, potentially so. But the curve seems to be fairly flat in the
region of most glider production runs. You'd just about have to double
the size of the worldwide fleet in five years or so before you see a
really meaningful price reduction. Not that that isn't possible, just
that it isn't all that likely given the way we're doing things today.

Personally, I'd like to see a new 12m class that replaces the World
Class. A while back I did a preliminary design of a set of carbon
fiber wings for Monerai for a friend, and the costs and panel weights
look pretty attractive. It'd be fun to make a nice fuselage for those
wings to suit smallish pilots and toss a few into the air.

Thanks, Bob K.

On Jan 24, 10:39*am, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
...Potentially, there are huge economies of scale
if the production run is large enough...

Yeah, potentially so. But the curve seems to be fairly flat in the
region of most glider production runs. You'd just about have to double
the size of the worldwide fleet in five years or so before you see a
really meaningful price reduction. Not that that isn't possible, just
that it isn't all that likely given the way we're doing things today.

Personally, I'd like to see a new 12m class that replaces the World
Class. A while back I did a preliminary design of a set of carbon
fiber wings for Monerai for a friend, and the costs and panel weights
look pretty attractive. It'd be fun to make a nice fuselage for those
wings to suit smallish pilots and toss a few into the air.

Thanks, Bob K.

I've been flying a sub-15m ship for almost 10 years now. First a
Russia AC-4C, and presently an Apis-13. While I really like the light
weight of the ship, I do jones for a bit more performance, I think if
a sub-15m ship could get an honest 40:1, it would be met with
enthusiasm.

Brad

At 19:07 24 January 2009, Brad wrote:

"I've been flying a sub-15m ship for almost 10 years now. First a
Russia AC-4C, and presently an Apis-13. While I really like the light
weight of the ship, I do jones for a bit more performance, I think if a
sub-15m ship could get an honest 40:1, it would be met with enthusiasm."

Want sub 15 meter and 40:1? Buy an ASW-27 and start sawing until you get
it down to 40:1! :-)

Or better yet, just buy something and fly!

Steve

On Jan 24, 6:45*pm, Steve Leonard wrote:
At 19:07 24 January 2009, Brad wrote:

"I've been flying a sub-15m ship for almost 10 years now. First a
Russia AC-4C, and presently an Apis-13. While I really like the light
weight of the ship, I do jones for a bit more performance, I think if a
sub-15m ship could get an honest 40:1, it would be met with enthusiasm."

Want sub 15 meter and 40:1? *Buy an ASW-27 and start sawing until you get
it down to 40:1! *:-)

Or better yet, just buy something and fly!

Steve

you're not paying attention to what I wrote are you......?

Brad

On Jan 24, 11:39*am, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
...Potentially, there are huge economies of scale
if the production run is large enough...

Yeah, potentially so. But the curve seems to be fairly flat in the
region of most glider production runs. You'd just about have to double
the size of the worldwide fleet in five years or so before you see a
really meaningful price reduction. Not that that isn't possible, just
that it isn't all that likely given the way we're doing things today.

Personally, I'd like to see a new 12m class that replaces the World
Class. A while back I did a preliminary design of a set of carbon
fiber wings for Monerai for a friend, and the costs and panel weights
look pretty attractive. It'd be fun to make a nice fuselage for those
wings to suit smallish pilots and toss a few into the air.

Thanks, Bob K.

But, if the number of classes keeps proliferating, the chances of a
long production run keeps dropping.

On Jan 24, 11:50*am, bildan wrote:

But, if the number of classes keeps proliferating, the chances of a
long production run keeps dropping.- Hide quoted text -

Here's the thing:

Soaring as we know it is hosed. EOL, game over. Time to dig a hole in
the back yard. Fortunately, we still have the opportunity to
rediscover and reinvent soaring as we've never known it.

A lot of this process of reinvention will happen rationally,
incrementally, and logically. But some if it will be the result of
blind faith and blind luck and happenstance. So my advice would be to
just try a bunch of different things, as many as we can, and see which
ones stick. And that's exactly what I intend to keep doing.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that cutting the price of a
production sailplane by 30%, from $120K down to $84K, is going to make
a measurable difference in factory orders or in incoming student
pilots. I do think that there is still a market for a $25K sport racer
that requires some sweat equity, but again that's just me.

I also think that a pretty nifty 12m all-carbon racer could be built
and flown for something like $12K to $18K given some desperation and
resourcefulness. It would have a best glide of only about 32:1 or
33:1, but its light weight and short span would open up about as much
territory to outlanding as its modest span subtracts. It would be
rugged and mechanically simple, with no airbrakes but with terminal
flaps interconnected with the ailerons. It's 18-foot panels would fit
into (and out of) a standard garage, and its 22-foot trailer (25 feet
with tongue) would fit in most driveways.

Thanks, Bob K.

I also think that a pretty nifty 12m all-carbon racer could be built
and flown for something like $12K to $18K given some desperation and
resourcefulness. It would have a best glide of only about 32:1 or
33:1, but its light weight and short span would open up about as much
territory to outlanding as its modest span subtracts. It would be
rugged and mechanically simple, with no airbrakes but with terminal
flaps interconnected with the ailerons. It's 18-foot panels would fit
into (and out of) a standard garage, and its 22-foot trailer (25 feet
with tongue) would fit in most driveways.

Thanks, Bob K.

Will this be the HP 25?

-Paul