How do I fly this approach?

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

Was this correct? I'm confused by the references to the NDB and the pointers
towards the east and the procedure turn. Do I have multiple options for this
approach? Was the way I flew it one of them? Or what?

There are three initial approach fixes--the two on the DME arcs
and the NDB. The procedure turn is for the NDB used as the initial
approach fix. The idea is it's close enough to the airport that
you get established outbound on the localizer.

It sounds like, other than using the autopilot (which doesn't
really give you any experience tracking the localizer) you
flew one of the published approaches.

Depending on local radar coverage, you might get vectored to
the localizer, in which case you don't worry about the initial
approach fix.

I'm not current, and I'm not an instructor, so like the other
poster said, don't take this advice if you're actually going
to FLY the approach....

Mike Beede

Mxsmanic wrote:
Kindly take a look at the ILS runway 26 approach to Astoria (KAST). I tried
to fly this in my sim and I'm not at all sure that I did it correctly.

In my case, this is what I did: I was on V187 from Seattle at 6000. Once I
was within 25 nm of AST, I descended to 4300. About 12 nm away from AST, I
turned roughly north and flew back out to 19 DME from AST, then turned east to
follow the 19 DME arc until I was within a few degrees of the localizer
course. At that point I started a turn towards the localizer and armed the
autopilot, which captured the localizer and glide slope immediately and took
over. About a mile away from the airport I disengaged the AP and flew the
landing by hand.

Was this correct? I'm confused by the references to the NDB and the pointers
towards the east and the procedure turn. Do I have multiple options for this
approach? Was the way I flew it one of them? Or what?

I almost thought that maybe I was supposed to fly to the VOR then outbound to
the NDB then make a procedure turn and come back in. But the DME arc had IAFs
at each end so I finally figured I could just come in towards the VOR then fly
back out to the arc and finally turn towards the airport, which is what I did.


You did it wrong about every way possible. How long have you been
playing real pilot and still don't know the basic rules?

First, by what authority did you descend 700 feet flow the MEA for V-187
simply because you were within 25 miles of AST? The MEA is 5,000 all
the way to AST VOR. That is basic chart reading.

Then, when you turn around at about 12 miles and headed north you
departed protected airspace. At some locations that could kill you but,
of course, not with your MS toy.

The 19 DME arc is available only to non-radar arrivals on on V-27
(R-328) from the northwest or V-27 (R-166) from the south. For any
other arrival the approach begins at AST via the feeder route to KARPEN,
then the procedure turn.

With this one, Anthony, you demonstrate you haven't grasped even the
fundamentals after how many years of ****ing around on this forum.

Sam Spade writes:

You did it wrong about every way possible.

Okay. Please describe the right way ... and provide references.

First, by what authority did you descend 700 feet flow the MEA for V-187
simply because you were within 25 miles of AST? The MEA is 5,000 all
the way to AST VOR. That is basic chart reading.

The plate gives the MSA within a 25-nm radius. Once I was within the 25-nm
radius, I could safely descend to the MSA, and I did so, because it
facilitated entering the approach.

Then, when you turn around at about 12 miles and headed north you
departed protected airspace.

I'm not sure what you mean by protected airspace. Once I was clear of the
Seattle Class B, the rest of the flight was conducted entirely in Class E
airspace, right up to landing.

The 19 DME arc is available only to non-radar arrivals on on V-27
(R-328) from the northwest or V-27 (R-166) from the south. For any
other arrival the approach begins at AST via the feeder route to KARPEN,
then the procedure turn.

Okay. How do you know this? Explain where and how it is documented on the
plate, or where it is documented elsewhere, so that I can look it up.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Sam Spade writes:


You did it wrong about every way possible.


Okay. Please describe the right way ... and provide references.


First, by what authority did you descend 700 feet flow the MEA for V-187
simply because you were within 25 miles of AST? The MEA is 5,000 all
the way to AST VOR. That is basic chart reading.


The plate gives the MSA within a 25-nm radius. Once I was within the 25-nm
radius, I could safely descend to the MSA, and I did so, because it
facilitated entering the approach.

You must think you are in Canada. MSAs are emergency altitudes only in
the U.S.


Then, when you turn around at about 12 miles and headed north you
departed protected airspace.


I'm not sure what you mean by protected airspace. Once I was clear of the
Seattle Class B, the rest of the flight was conducted entirely in Class E
airspace, right up to landing.

Airspace protected from obstacles.

The 19 DME arc is available only to non-radar arrivals on on V-27
(R-328) from the northwest or V-27 (R-166) from the south. For any
other arrival the approach begins at AST via the feeder route to KARPEN,
then the procedure turn.


Okay. How do you know this? Explain where and how it is documented on the
plate, or where it is documented elsewhere, so that I can look it up.

Chief counsel's November, 1994 legal ruling on use of IAP's in non-radar
conditions. It is available on Summit's Aviation Reference Library:

The letter states in part:

"You also ask whether a Distance Measuring Equipment (DME) arc
initial approach segment can be substituted for a published IAF along
any portion of the published arc. A DME arc cannot be substituted for a
published IAF along a portion of the published arc."

Sam Spade writes:

You must think you are in Canada. MSAs are emergency altitudes only in
the U.S.

Even if I grant this (the FARs mention it but do not define it), how would I
then determine the minimum altitude when moving from the airway to the DME
arc? The airway MEA applies only on the airway, which I had left. The
sectional MEF for the quadrant in which I was operating was 1100 feet below
the MSA.

If I'm off-airway, and not within an area for which a MSA is published, how do
I determine my minimum instrument altitude? If the MEA on the airway had been
14,000 feet, how would I get from that altitude to the appropriate altitude to
capture the ILS glide slope in the distance available to me?

Airspace protected from obstacles.

By remaining at or above the MSA, I was protected from obstacles. This is true
whether an emergency existed or not.

Chief counsel's November, 1994 legal ruling on use of IAP's in non-radar
conditions. It is available on Summit's Aviation Reference Library:

The letter states in part:

"You also ask whether a Distance Measuring Equipment (DME) arc
initial approach segment can be substituted for a published IAF along
any portion of the published arc. A DME arc cannot be substituted for a
published IAF along a portion of the published arc."

I have the letter in front of me, but I do not see the relevance of it.
Explain how it applies here.

I also don't see any indication of feeder routes on the IAP plate. Can you
point these indications out to me?

I'll ask again: Describe exactly how I should have flown this, and explain
why, step by step.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Sam Spade writes:


You must think you are in Canada. MSAs are emergency altitudes only in
the U.S.


Even if I grant this (the FARs mention it but do not define it), how would I
then determine the minimum altitude when moving from the airway to the DME
arc? The airway MEA applies only on the airway, which I had left. The
sectional MEF for the quadrant in which I was operating was 1100 feet below
the MSA.

If I'm off-airway, and not within an area for which a MSA is published, how do
I determine my minimum instrument altitude? If the MEA on the airway had been
14,000 feet, how would I get from that altitude to the appropriate altitude to
capture the ILS glide slope in the distance available to me?


Airspace protected from obstacles.


By remaining at or above the MSA, I was protected from obstacles. This is true
whether an emergency existed or not.


Chief counsel's November, 1994 legal ruling on use of IAP's in non-radar
conditions. It is available on Summit's Aviation Reference Library:

The letter states in part:

"You also ask whether a Distance Measuring Equipment (DME) arc
initial approach segment can be substituted for a published IAF along
any portion of the published arc. A DME arc cannot be substituted for a
published IAF along a portion of the published arc."


I have the letter in front of me, but I do not see the relevance of it.
Explain how it applies here.

I also don't see any indication of feeder routes on the IAP plate. Can you
point these indications out to me?

I'll ask again: Describe exactly how I should have flown this, and explain
why, step by step.

If you don't see the relevance of the letter and you don't understand
MSAs, then just go play with yourself. You are up to the same bull****
game.

On Mar 15, 5:34*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Kindly take a look at the ILS runway 26 approach to Astoria (KAST). *I tried
to fly this in my sim and I'm not at all sure that I did it correctly.

In my case, this is what I did: *I was on V187 from Seattle at 6000. *Once I
was within 25 nm of AST, I descended to 4300. *About 12 nm away from AST, I
turned roughly north and flew back out to 19 DME from AST, then turned east to
follow the 19 DME arc until I was within a few degrees of the localizer
course. *At that point I started a turn towards the localizer and armed the
autopilot, which captured the localizer and glide slope immediately and took
over. *About a mile away from the airport I disengaged the AP and flew the
landing by hand.

Was this correct? *I'm confused by the references to the NDB and the pointers
towards the east and the procedure turn. *Do I have multiple options for this
approach? *Was the way I flew it one of them? *Or what?

I almost thought that maybe I was supposed to fly to the VOR then outbound to
the NDB then make a procedure turn and come back in. *But the DME arc had IAFs
at each end so I finally figured I could just come in towards the VOR then fly
back out to the arc and finally turn towards the airport, which is what I did.

There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about this approach. Any rated
pilot, from 50 miles out at 6000 feet on V187 would not be happy to
hear center say "Cleared ILS 26, report to the tower at the outer
marker inbound" but would know what to do. It would be the same thing
we would do had we lost radio communication and our last clearance was
to that airport. Have you any clue as to why we would not be happy to
get that clearance?

What would YOU do? And provide references.

On Mar 19, 9:42*am, a wrote:
On Mar 15, 5:34*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:





Kindly take a look at the ILS runway 26 approach to Astoria (KAST). *I tried
to fly this in my sim and I'm not at all sure that I did it correctly.

In my case, this is what I did: *I was on V187 from Seattle at 6000. *Once I
was within 25 nm of AST, I descended to 4300. *About 12 nm away from AST, I
turned roughly north and flew back out to 19 DME from AST, then turned east to
follow the 19 DME arc until I was within a few degrees of the localizer
course. *At that point I started a turn towards the localizer and armed the
autopilot, which captured the localizer and glide slope immediately and took
over. *About a mile away from the airport I disengaged the AP and flew the
landing by hand.

Was this correct? *I'm confused by the references to the NDB and the pointers
towards the east and the procedure turn. *Do I have multiple options for this
approach? *Was the way I flew it one of them? *Or what?

I almost thought that maybe I was supposed to fly to the VOR then outbound to
the NDB then make a procedure turn and come back in. *But the DME arc had IAFs
at each end so I finally figured I could just come in towards the VOR then fly
back out to the arc and finally turn towards the airport, which is what I did.

There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about this approach. *Any rated
pilot, from 50 miles out at 6000 feet on V187 would not be happy to
hear center say "Cleared ILS 26, report to the tower at the outer
marker inbound" but would know what to do. It would be the same thing
we would do had we lost radio communication and our last clearance was
to that airport. Have you any clue as to why we would not be happy to
get that clearance?

What would YOU do? And provide references.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Apparently I don't understand the question. This approach does not
seem to be unusual, and your scenario would not make me unhappy
(unless you just don't like doing full approaches).

Maurice Givens
CSEL, CSES, CMEL, CFI-A, CFI-I, AGI, IGI
CAP Check Pilot

On Mar 19, 1:08*pm, wrote:
On Mar 19, 9:42*am, a wrote:





On Mar 15, 5:34*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:

Kindly take a look at the ILS runway 26 approach to Astoria (KAST). *I tried
to fly this in my sim and I'm not at all sure that I did it correctly..

In my case, this is what I did: *I was on V187 from Seattle at 6000.. *Once I
was within 25 nm of AST, I descended to 4300. *About 12 nm away from AST, I
turned roughly north and flew back out to 19 DME from AST, then turned east to
follow the 19 DME arc until I was within a few degrees of the localizer
course. *At that point I started a turn towards the localizer and armed the
autopilot, which captured the localizer and glide slope immediately and took
over. *About a mile away from the airport I disengaged the AP and flew the
landing by hand.

Was this correct? *I'm confused by the references to the NDB and the pointers
towards the east and the procedure turn. *Do I have multiple options for this
approach? *Was the way I flew it one of them? *Or what?

I almost thought that maybe I was supposed to fly to the VOR then outbound to
the NDB then make a procedure turn and come back in. *But the DME arc had IAFs
at each end so I finally figured I could just come in towards the VOR then fly
back out to the arc and finally turn towards the airport, which is what I did.

There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about this approach. *Any rated
pilot, from 50 miles out at 6000 feet on V187 would not be happy to
hear center say "Cleared ILS 26, report to the tower at the outer
marker inbound" but would know what to do. It would be the same thing
we would do had we lost radio communication and our last clearance was
to that airport. Have you any clue as to why we would not be happy to
get that clearance?

What would YOU do? And provide references.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Apparently I don't understand the question. *This approach does not
seem to be unusual, and your scenario would not make me unhappy
(unless you just don't like doing full approaches).

Maurice Givens
CSEL, CSES, CMEL, CFI-A, CFI-I, AGI, IGI
CAP Check Pilot- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The question was directed to the OP, Maury. Consider again the
clearance and your position. My own preference is to not have to hurry
down from en route altitudes.

On Mar 19, 2:28*pm, a wrote:
On Mar 19, 1:08*pm, wrote:





On Mar 19, 9:42*am, a wrote:

On Mar 15, 5:34*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:

Kindly take a look at the ILS runway 26 approach to Astoria (KAST). *I tried
to fly this in my sim and I'm not at all sure that I did it correctly.

In my case, this is what I did: *I was on V187 from Seattle at 6000. *Once I
was within 25 nm of AST, I descended to 4300. *About 12 nm away from AST, I
turned roughly north and flew back out to 19 DME from AST, then turned east to
follow the 19 DME arc until I was within a few degrees of the localizer
course. *At that point I started a turn towards the localizer and armed the
autopilot, which captured the localizer and glide slope immediately and took
over. *About a mile away from the airport I disengaged the AP and flew the
landing by hand.

Was this correct? *I'm confused by the references to the NDB and the pointers
towards the east and the procedure turn. *Do I have multiple options for this
approach? *Was the way I flew it one of them? *Or what?

I almost thought that maybe I was supposed to fly to the VOR then outbound to
the NDB then make a procedure turn and come back in. *But the DME arc had IAFs
at each end so I finally figured I could just come in towards the VOR then fly
back out to the arc and finally turn towards the airport, which is what I did.

There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about this approach. *Any rated
pilot, from 50 miles out at 6000 feet on V187 would not be happy to
hear center say "Cleared ILS 26, report to the tower at the outer
marker inbound" but would know what to do. It would be the same thing
we would do had we lost radio communication and our last clearance was
to that airport. Have you any clue as to why we would not be happy to
get that clearance?

What would YOU do? And provide references.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Apparently I don't understand the question. *This approach does not
seem to be unusual, and your scenario would not make me unhappy
(unless you just don't like doing full approaches).

Maurice Givens
CSEL, CSES, CMEL, CFI-A, CFI-I, AGI, IGI
CAP Check Pilot- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The question was directed to the OP, Maury. Consider again the
clearance and your position. My own preference is to not have to hurry
down from en route altitudes.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

O.K., you're at 6000 ft on V187, AST defines V187, there is a feeder
from AST to KARPEN and you're allowed to descend to 4300 ft. on the
feeder. The feeder is 12.3 mi from AST to KARPEN. I think I can lose
1700 ft in 12.3 mi., do the procedure turn and intercept. Am I
missing something? This does not appear to be that difficult.


Maurice Givens
CSEL, CSES, CMEL, CFI-A, CFI-I, AGI, IGI
CAP Check Pilot