Parowan Fatal Crash

On Jul 1, 2:01*pm, Craig wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:31*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:



I agree. But I am especially bothered by accidents that don't seem to
fall under any of the above critical points.

Ramy

Ramy -

While its too early to talk about accident causation, in both cases
there appears to be some stall/spin behavior in the chain of events.

Stall/spin accidents are a known problem and an area that _all_ pilots
should be aware of. *There is no excuse for not practicing them and/or
taking spin recovery training.

Every pilot should understand their CG (and its effects on stall/spin
behavior of their particular aircraft). *They should also think about
stall/spin behavior and CG changes when they load up on water ballast
as well.

--Noel

Some of our birds are placarded against spinning (my Nimbus 3
included). *Spin training is a must, but something like a Blanik won't
necessarily prepare a pilot for a glider with a less benign spin
mode. *All of our machines "talk" to us in the air. *The best thing we
can do is learn how to really listen to them.

Craig

After many years of first learning spins, practicing them and finally
teaching them, I've developed the opinion that what we do to teach
spins has little to do with the actual killer spin. Who would
inadvertently haul the nose way up then stomp full rudder at the stall
break?

The people who taught me the killer spin were my students. As in, "I
didn't know a glider would do that." It helps to have a easily
spinable glider like a 2-32, Blanik or Lark although the 2-32 tends to
spin too easily.

These spins require a set up. First, fly at minimum controllable
airspeed for at least 30 seconds. Try to let the glider slowly and
smoothly enter "mushing flight". In "mushing flight" the glider is
not quite stalled but the airflow over the wing has become unstable.
Any disturbance will trip it into a full stall. The angle of attack
is very high due to the sink rate - not a nose high attitude. In
fact, the nose can be near the usual gliding attitude.

Any attempt to turn will trip an asymmetric stall which will develop
into a spin in less than a second. Just before the glider spins,
everything "looks" normal. (Except, of course, for the ridiculously
low airspeed, sloppy controls, absence of wind noise etc...) Several
high time glider pilots doing a BFR with me didn't see this one coming
and were visibly shaken by their 'inadvertent spin'.

What happens next is crucial. If the pilot does nothing, the glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. If the pilot then applies
spin recovery control inputs the spiral dive will become much worse.
Some of the scariest rides I've had is with a pilot using "anti-spin"
control inputs while in a spiral dive.

In most fatal "spin-in" accidents, I think the glider is likely to
have transitioned to a spiral dive before impact. This can also
explain some in-flight breakups following an inadvertent spin.

There has been some insightful, thoughtful, and (I hope)
thought-provoking input ahead of this post & I doubt I can contribute
much more, beyond agreeing with it all and trying to reinforce it from
my personal perspective.

As the years have passed, one by one most of my long-held beliefs about
certain aspects of aviation have been proven wrong by reality, e.g.:
- it IS possible to spin in a landing-flap-only-equipped sailplane while
flying a pattern with full flaps;
- people DO routinely fall asleep at the switch;
- "it" CAN happen to me.

The ship I've flown since 1981 is docility defined in every flight
regime which I've explored, and I have difficulty imagining one of
similar airfoil & configuration being inadvertently spun...yet it has
been done (not by me), and, into the ground, with full flaps deployed
(the pilot - who survived - was overshooting his off-airport field).

I've never spun mine, have no intention of ever spinning it
(intentionally or unintentionally), but believe in my soul that it
*might* be possible that I *could* inadvertently spin it...and try
really hard to "not do it!" So far, it's worked.

I believe and think this way for a number of reasons: 1) accident
reports tell me others (including paid professionals) too-often 'do the
impossibly unlikely;' 2) perfection's NOT an option; and 3) I hope that
by so believing I'm doing everything I can within myself to *avoid*
doing those things I never - EVER! - want to do in a glider. You're
darned right there's a paradox here, but until someone comes up with an
inoculation against human forgetfulness, momentary inattention during
critical flight regimes, varying/diminishing skills, etc. I believe it's
the best I can do within my own brain.

I knew neither of our recently departed soul brothers, but mourn their
passing and circumstances, and grieve for their families and friends.

Respectfully and Sorrowfully,
Bob W.

On Jul 1, 5:32*pm, bildan wrote:

What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *If the pilot then applies
spin recovery control inputs the spiral dive will become much worse.
Some of the scariest rides I've had is with a pilot using "anti-spin"
control inputs while in a spiral dive.

I'm a little confused by this. The normal recovery from a spiral dive
is to roll the wings level and then apply smooth aft stick pressure to
level flight. What is it about the "anti-spin" control inputs that
makes the spiral dive worse? Do you mean something like full rudder
in the anti-turn direction and full forward stick?

TA

On Jul 1, 6:49*pm, Frank wrote:
On Jul 1, 5:32*pm, bildan wrote:

What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *If the pilot then applies
spin recovery control inputs the spiral dive will become much worse.
Some of the scariest rides I've had is with a pilot using "anti-spin"
control inputs while in a spiral dive.

I'm a little confused by this. *The normal recovery from a spiral dive
is to roll the wings level and then apply smooth aft stick pressure to
level flight. *What is it about the "anti-spin" control inputs that
makes the spiral dive worse? *Do you mean something like full rudder
in the anti-turn direction and full forward stick?

TA

You just answered your own question. If in an early spiral dive down
elevetor is going to accelerate the spiral dive. If going very fast a
full rudder deflection is not a good thing. And you have not directly
helped do what you really need to do which is roll off aileron so you
can then get the airspeed off. So now you are in a very steep spiral
dive maybe yawed sideways and things are winding up fast. If lack of
situational awareness led to an inital wrong control input for
recovery the confusion about what is then going on may be too much.

The g-forces on a pilot in a spiral dive are not pretty to think
about. In a ship like mine (ASH-26E) with a nice big bathtub style
cockpit getting out would be very difficult. I am not an instructor
but one thing I noticed when spinning two seaters with other pilots
(and this was just a DG-1000, which is pretty benign) was that it was
pretty common not to recognize the transition to a spiral dive. This
is the main reason I think proper spin training with an instructor is
a good idea. Obviously the goal is to avoid entry at all, but I worry
what happens once in a spin if a pilot is not comfortable with
recovery. Then think about this with a slippery high performance
glider loaded up with water. And. yes I know the horrible irony is
that people will die in spin training accidents.

Anyhow this is is all gerneal comments and who knows if relevent in
any way to the two recent accidents.

Deep sympathy to the families of the two pilots who died in these
accidents.

A sobering time for us all to think about how we fly and out own
safety.

Darryl

On Jul 1, 2:32*pm, bildan wrote:
Any attempt to turn will trip an asymmetric stall which will develop
into a spin in less than a second. * *Just before the glider spins,
everything "looks" normal. *(Except, of course, for the ridiculously
low airspeed, sloppy controls, absence of wind noise etc...) *Several
high time glider pilots doing a BFR with me didn't see this one coming
and were visibly shaken by their 'inadvertent spin'.

What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *
I do not understand this last sentence. What converts a spin into a
spiral dive? What is the aerdynamic/physics here?
Heinz

On Jul 1, 9:54*pm, Heinz wrote:
On Jul 1, 2:32*pm, bildan wrote: Any attempt to turn will trip an asymmetric stall which will develop
into a spin in less than a second. * *Just before the glider spins,
everything "looks" normal. *(Except, of course, for the ridiculously
low airspeed, sloppy controls, absence of wind noise etc...) *Several
high time glider pilots doing a BFR with me didn't see this one coming
and were visibly shaken by their 'inadvertent spin'.

What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *

I do not understand this last sentence. What converts a spin into a
spiral dive? What is the aerdynamic/physics here?
Heinz

Am I misunderstanding the question? Once the pilot releases back
pressure or applies forward stick, or if pilot reduced spin direction
rudder or applies opposite rudder (will help slow rotation rate and
can cause nose to drop and stall to break) or applies inside aileron
(opposite effect of a flat spin)... all obvious things that can cause
the stall to break and then you have the outer wing flying faster,
nose pointed at ground ...

Undoubtedly there are second order things where a glider will come out
of a spin by itself (we've all seen this right?) after a few rotations
with constant control positions as the nose slowly drops, if the
glider is never really fully stalled (esp. with forward CG) or angular
momentum related effects. But I'll expect in most cases the cause is
just simply the pilot intentionally or unintentionally releasing back
pressure.

Darryl

How about some sympathy for the families...

GL


At 05:43 02 July 2009, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 1, 9:54=A0pm, Heinz wrote:
On Jul 1, 2:32=A0pm, bildan wrote: Any attempt to t=
urn will trip an asymmetric stall which will develop
into a spin in less than a second. =A0 =A0Just before the glider
spins,
everything "looks" normal. =A0(Except, of course, for the
ridiculously
low airspeed, sloppy controls, absence of wind noise etc...)
=A0Several
high time glider pilots doing a BFR with me didn't see this one
coming
and were visibly shaken by their 'inadvertent spin'.

What happens next is crucial. =A0If the pilot does nothing, the
glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. =A0

I do not understand this last sentence. What converts a spin into a
spiral dive? What is the aerdynamic/physics here?
Heinz

Am I misunderstanding the question? Once the pilot releases back
pressure or applies forward stick, or if pilot reduced spin direction
rudder or applies opposite rudder (will help slow rotation rate and
can cause nose to drop and stall to break) or applies inside aileron
(opposite effect of a flat spin)... all obvious things that can cause
the stall to break and then you have the outer wing flying faster,
nose pointed at ground ...

Undoubtedly there are second order things where a glider will come out
of a spin by itself (we've all seen this right?) after a few rotations
with constant control positions as the nose slowly drops, if the
glider is never really fully stalled (esp. with forward CG) or angular
momentum related effects. But I'll expect in most cases the cause is
just simply the pilot intentionally or unintentionally releasing back
pressure.

Darryl

On Jul 2, 6:45*am, Gregg Leslie wrote:
How about some sympathy for the families...

GL

Yes, thank you Gregg.

For the rest of you guys... c'mon. You want to discuss elementary
spin recovery technique, fine. Start your own thread. Please don't
do it in the context of a couple of tragic accidents.

We don't know what happened. I do know that the one of these guys I
knew personally had a lot more flight experience in all sorts of
aircraft, from hang gliders to turbo-twins than most of the noisy
pundits here. If he failed to apply appropriate corrective actions, I
suspect it is most likely because he was incapacitated. Lack of
knowledge or skill wasn't the problem.

I'm with Ramy, these accidents are disturbing.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Points taken, but having said that, how well will pilots react if they
unexpectedly get into a spin or a spiral dive? Normally you gird your
loins up first before doing a deliberate spin! It has only happened to me
once while solo flying (a spin), and I have to admit that that it took me
a second or two to twig what was going on. I have also seen a K6E flown by
a very experienced instructor returning to the airfield looking as though
it had been on a bombing raid, with lots of torn fabric and other damage
after a loss of control in a rough thermal.

Derek Copeland

At 11:17 02 July 2009, T8 wrote:
On Jul 2, 6:45=A0am, Gregg Leslie wrote:
How about some sympathy for the families...

GL

Yes, thank you Gregg.

For the rest of you guys... c'mon. You want to discuss elementary
spin recovery technique, fine. Start your own thread. Please don't
do it in the context of a couple of tragic accidents.

We don't know what happened. I do know that the one of these guys I
knew personally had a lot more flight experience in all sorts of
aircraft, from hang gliders to turbo-twins than most of the noisy
pundits here. If he failed to apply appropriate corrective actions, I
suspect it is most likely because he was incapacitated. Lack of
knowledge or skill wasn't the problem.

I'm with Ramy, these accidents are disturbing.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Jul 2, 5:17*am, T8 wrote:
On Jul 2, 6:45*am, Gregg Leslie wrote:

How about some sympathy for the families...

GL

Yes, thank you Gregg.

For the rest of you guys... c'mon. *You want to discuss elementary
spin recovery technique, fine. *Start your own thread. *Please don't
do it in the context of a couple of tragic accidents.

We don't know what happened. *I do know that the one of these guys I
knew personally had a lot more flight experience in all sorts of
aircraft, from hang gliders to turbo-twins than most of the noisy
pundits here. *If he failed to apply appropriate corrective actions, I
suspect it is most likely because he was incapacitated. *Lack of
knowledge or skill wasn't the problem.

I'm with Ramy, these accidents are disturbing.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

These accidents are very disturbing for all of us. Of course we
sympathize with the families. We are all family. These discussions
mean no disrespect whatsoever. We don't yet know the cause of any of
these accidents and may never know the exact cause but incapacitation
is always a possibility.

Discussing the general subject of what causes accidents is one way
pilots cope. It's an attempt to put tragedies into some sort of
rational framework we can deal with.

The biggest mistake we can make as a group is to never discuss
accidents since they are a powerful learning opportunity.