Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

Flaps_50! wrote:
On Sep 3, 6:37Â*am, BeechSundowner wrote:
On Sep 2, 2:24Â*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:



You really don't (or won't) get it?

-------------
§ 91.303 Â* Aerobatic flight.

No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight—

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;

(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;

(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B,
Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not
necessary for normal flight."
---------
What does "for normal flight" mean?

Cheers- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No you don't get it. Â*I was not within A, B, C or D as described that
you allude to above. Â*I was in a designated practice area.

I wasn't performing normal flight. Â*I was performing an emergency
procedure. Â*What part do YOU not get.

I don't think you read it carefully. The regs don't say within ABCD
airspace, but within _lateral_ limits of those airspaces. Since you
communicated with ATC I assume you were below one of those airspaces
and therefore within its lateral limits (not vertical). Also how far
away was the nearest highway?

Cheers

Designated practice areas are not within any limits of those airspaces
nor are they near any airway.

There is a reason for that.

One can communicate with ATC in any type of airspace.

Your objections are nonsense.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Sep 3, 5:15*pm, wrote:
Flaps_50! wrote:
On Sep 3, 6:37*am, BeechSundowner wrote:
On Sep 2, 2:24*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

You really don't (or won't) get it?

-------------
§ 91.303 * Aerobatic flight.

No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight—

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;

(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;

(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B,
Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not
necessary for normal flight."
---------
What does "for normal flight" mean?

Cheers- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No you don't get it. *I was not within A, B, C or D as described that
you allude to above. *I was in a designated practice area.

I wasn't performing normal flight. *I was performing an emergency
procedure. *What part do YOU not get.

I don't think you read it carefully. The regs don't say within ABCD
airspace, but within _lateral_ limits of those airspaces. Since you
communicated with ATC I assume you were below one of those airspaces
and therefore within its lateral limits (not vertical). *Also how far
away was the nearest highway?

Cheers

Designated practice areas are not within any limits of those airspaces
nor are they near any airway.


I disagree, practice areas are often below designated airspace. It's
the lateral limits that can be a gotcha for aerobatics.

Cheers

Flaps_50! wrote:
On Sep 3, 5:15Â*pm, wrote:
Flaps_50! wrote:
On Sep 3, 6:37Â*am, BeechSundowner wrote:
On Sep 2, 2:24Â*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

You really don't (or won't) get it?

-------------
§ 91.303 Â* Aerobatic flight.

No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight—

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;

(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;

(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B,
Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not
necessary for normal flight."
---------
What does "for normal flight" mean?

Cheers- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No you don't get it. Â*I was not within A, B, C or D as described that
you allude to above. Â*I was in a designated practice area.

I wasn't performing normal flight. Â*I was performing an emergency
procedure. Â*What part do YOU not get.

I don't think you read it carefully. The regs don't say within ABCD
airspace, but within _lateral_ limits of those airspaces. Since you
communicated with ATC I assume you were below one of those airspaces
and therefore within its lateral limits (not vertical). Â*Also how far
away was the nearest highway?

Cheers

Designated practice areas are not within any limits of those airspaces
nor are they near any airway.


I disagree, practice areas are often below designated airspace. It's
the lateral limits that can be a gotcha for aerobatics.

Cheers

Technically, EVERYTHING is below class A.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Sep 4, 2:30*am, wrote:
Flaps_50! wrote:
On Sep 3, 5:15*pm, wrote:
Flaps_50! wrote:
On Sep 3, 6:37*am, BeechSundowner wrote:
On Sep 2, 2:24*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

You really don't (or won't) get it?

-------------
§ 91.303 * Aerobatic flight.

No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight—

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;

(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;

(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B,
Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not
necessary for normal flight."
---------
What does "for normal flight" mean?

Cheers- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No you don't get it. *I was not within A, B, C or D as described that
you allude to above. *I was in a designated practice area.

I wasn't performing normal flight. *I was performing an emergency
procedure. *What part do YOU not get.

I don't think you read it carefully. The regs don't say within ABCD
airspace, but within _lateral_ limits of those airspaces. Since you
communicated with ATC I assume you were below one of those airspaces
and therefore within its lateral limits (not vertical). *Also how far
away was the nearest highway?

Cheers

Designated practice areas are not within any limits of those airspaces
nor are they near any airway.

I disagree, practice areas are often below designated airspace. It's
the lateral limits that can be a gotcha for aerobatics.

Cheers

Technically, EVERYTHING is below class A.


Yes, but the FAR doesn't include class A :-)

Cheers

On Sep 3, 5:15*pm, wrote:
Flaps_50! wrote:
On Sep 3, 6:37*am, BeechSundowner wrote:
On Sep 2, 2:24*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

You really don't (or won't) get it?

-------------
§ 91.303 * Aerobatic flight.

No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight—

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;

(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;

(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B,
Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not
necessary for normal flight."
---------
What does "for normal flight" mean?

Cheers- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No you don't get it. *I was not within A, B, C or D as described that
you allude to above. *I was in a designated practice area.

I wasn't performing normal flight. *I was performing an emergency
procedure. *What part do YOU not get.

I don't think you read it carefully. The regs don't say within ABCD
airspace, but within _lateral_ limits of those airspaces. Since you
communicated with ATC I assume you were below one of those airspaces
and therefore within its lateral limits (not vertical). *Also how far
away was the nearest highway?

Cheers

Designated practice areas are not within any limits of those airspaces
nor are they near any airway.

There is a reason for that.

One can communicate with ATC in any type of airspace.

Your objections are nonsense.


How do you know where he was? My point is that its the _lateral_
limits of airspace that can be a no-no for aerobatics. In places,
practice areas may be below other airspace...

Cheers

On Sep 3, 6:47*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

How do you know where he was?

I TOLD YOU. I was in a designated practice area. What part of that
do you not understand outside of ASSuming? Look up KJAN and 10 miles
NE of the outershelf of Charlie is the designated practice area.

My point is that its the _lateral_
limits of airspace that can be a no-no for aerobatics. In places,
practice areas may be below other airspace...

Your point was irrelevant to my situation for two reasons. One is
above. Second was that I was not conducting aerobatics. What part of
that do you NOT understand?

"Flaps_50!" wrote

How do you know where he was? My point is that its the _lateral_
limits of airspace that can be a no-no for aerobatics. In places,
practice areas may be below other airspace...

You demonstrate that you don't fully understand the pertinent FAR
which I post below. The operable phrase is "of the SURFACE AREA",
not the entire airspace.

"SURFACE AREA"s are normally a 5 mile radius around the airport
for which the airspace is designated. In reading the regulation, I
find no prohibition against conducting aerobatics underneith the outer
rings of a Class B,C,airspace, although, since the outer ring of Class
C airspace can be as low as 1200'AGL, considering 91.303(e), aerobatics
might not be allowed.

Bob Moore
Flying since 1958
CFIing since 1970


Section 91.303: Aerobatic flight.
No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight—

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;

(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;

(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C,
Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;

(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or

(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional
maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal
attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.

On Sep 4, 1:31*am, Robert Moore wrote:
"Flaps_50!" wrote

How do you know where he was? My point is that its the _lateral_
limits of airspace that can be a no-no for aerobatics. In places,
practice areas may be below other airspace...

You demonstrate that you don't fully understand the pertinent FAR
which I post below. The operable phrase is "of the SURFACE AREA",
not the entire airspace.

"SURFACE AREA"s are normally a 5 mile radius around the airport
for which the airspace is designated. In reading the regulation, I
find no prohibition against conducting aerobatics underneith the outer
rings of a Class B,C,airspace, although, since the outer ring of Class
C airspace can be as low as 1200'AGL, considering 91.303(e), aerobatics
might not be allowed.

Bob Moore
Flying since 1958
CFIing since 1970

Section 91.303: Aerobatic flight.
No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight—

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;

(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;

(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C,
Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;

(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or

(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional
maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal
attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.

Nope. The FAR is quite clear. It says noting about surface area around
an airport. Just the _lateral limits_ of B,C,D,E airspace. Read it
again.

Cheers

In article
,
"Flaps_50!" wrote:

On Sep 4, 1:31*am, Robert Moore wrote:
"Flaps_50!" wrote

How do you know where he was? My point is that its the _lateral_
limits of airspace that can be a no-no for aerobatics. In places,
practice areas may be below other airspace...

You demonstrate that you don't fully understand the pertinent FAR
which I post below. The operable phrase is "of the SURFACE AREA",
not the entire airspace.

"SURFACE AREA"s are normally a 5 mile radius around the airport
for which the airspace is designated. In reading the regulation, I
find no prohibition against conducting aerobatics underneith the outer
rings of a Class B,C,airspace, although, since the outer ring of Class
C airspace can be as low as 1200'AGL, considering 91.303(e), aerobatics
might not be allowed.

Bob Moore
Flying since 1958
CFIing since 1970

Section 91.303: Aerobatic flight.
No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight‹

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;

(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;

(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C,
Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;

(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or

(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional
maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal
attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.

Nope. The FAR is quite clear. It says noting about surface area around
an airport. Just the _lateral limits_ of B,C,D,E airspace. Read it
again.

Huh? This is the text of 91.303(c), emphasis added:

"Within the lateral boundaries of the SURFACE AREAS of Class B, Class C,
Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;"

Seems pretty clear to me that it's talking about, well, the SURFACE
AREAS, since it uses those exact words. That is the only section of
91.303 which makes reference to those airspace types.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

On Sep 4, 1:31*am, Robert Moore wrote:
"Flaps_50!" wrote

How do you know where he was? My point is that its the _lateral_
limits of airspace that can be a no-no for aerobatics. In places,
practice areas may be below other airspace...

You demonstrate that you don't fully understand the pertinent FAR
which I post below. The operable phrase is "of the SURFACE AREA",
not the entire airspace.

"SURFACE AREA"s are normally a 5 mile radius around the airport
for which the airspace is designated. In reading the regulation, I
find no prohibition against conducting aerobatics underneith the outer
rings of a Class B,C,airspace, although, since the outer ring of Class
C airspace can be as low as 1200'AGL, considering 91.303(e), aerobatics
might not be allowed.

Bob Moore
Flying since 1958
CFIing since 1970

Section 91.303: Aerobatic flight.
No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight—

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;

(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;

(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C,
Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;

(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or

(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional
maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal
attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.

Thanks for making this interpretation clear to me. I read it simply
as the surface lateral limit of BCDE and that does not, to me, mean
within 5 miles of an airport. If in common US parlance, it is as you
say then shouldn't the FAR be rewritten to make your interpretation
clear? I can see the merit in your definition as C can be huge and
would prevent most aerobatic practice outside special use areas given
by a waiver from the director. From a legal and practical POV I can
see the merit in requiring an application for an aerobatic area as the
risks wold be minimised as ATC would not route planes at the bottom
edge of those air spaces near the aerobatic area.

Cheers