japanese war crimes-- was hiroshima

In article ,
(robert arndt) wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:

Given that we didnt tie wounded POW's to trees
with barbed wire and use them for bayonent
pratctise I'd say no we didnt.

No, we just interned Japanese-Americans for years in camps behind
barbed wire at home.

Yep. We were pretty darned nice, for the times.

As opposed to, say, the Germans and Japanese of the times, we were
practically saints.

Thanks for pointing that out for us.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:04:54 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

In article ,
(robert arndt) wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:

Given that we didnt tie wounded POW's to trees
with barbed wire and use them for bayonent
pratctise I'd say no we didnt.

No, we just interned Japanese-Americans for years in camps behind
barbed wire at home.

Yep. We were pretty darned nice, for the times.

As opposed to, say, the Germans and Japanese of the times, we were
practically saints.

Thanks for pointing that out for us.


To be fair, you'd have to be pretty damned awful to *not* be a saint
compared to the German's and Japanese acts of WWII.
By the standards of our own democracy, the internment was a positive
wrong for the following reasons.

1. while it was true that many Japanese were not american citizens,
this was because by law, no Asian could be naturalized in the U.S.
2. The citizens were detained with no evidence of wrong doing or
potential wrong doing, and in fact the FBI opposed the move.
3. There was no such detention in the one U.S. possession most
exposed to potential invasion.
4. There was no protection of their goods and lands from
expropriation-- most of Orange County used to be owned by Nisie
families. (and given California popular agitation against Asian land
ownership, I cannot help but think that at least some people saw this
as a very happy outcome).
and 5. At a time when the 442nd should have proven their loyalty
beyond a shadow of a doubt, they were kept in the interment
facilities.

Now, how is this different from Hiroshima? THere *were* other
options. The FBI's assuarnce that it had the situation under control
could have resulted in a more targeted sereis of internments, focusing
on those who were most likely to provide support to the Japanese
empire. Those interned could have had their property protected.

But the historian in me wishes to point out that the nation was
different at the time. We *were* a racist nation-- lynching was going
on in the south, segregation was the unchallenged law of the land in
many parts of the U.S., and the idea of racial inequality was
enshrined in many peoples mind-- hell, it took the discovery of the
deathcamps-- the natural outcome of such doctrines, to shake things
loose. In that time, bad as it was, it could have been much worse.

I do know we've gotten far, FAR better. When 9/11 hit, my first
thoughts were to bomb the SOB's who had done it. My second thoughts
were fearfully wondering if my Muslim and arab friends were going to
catch a backlash. Fortunately, for all my dislike of some of the Bush
administrations decisions, and with the misteps that ever government
makes, they came down firmly against any actions against American
Muslims/arabs as a whole, and those who decided to taket he law into
their own hands are now safe from Bin Laden, courtesy of hte Federal
and State Judiciary systems.

In article ,
Charles Gray wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:04:54 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

In article ,
(robert arndt) wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:

Given that we didnt tie wounded POW's to trees
with barbed wire and use them for bayonent
pratctise I'd say no we didnt.

No, we just interned Japanese-Americans for years in camps behind
barbed wire at home.

Yep. We were pretty darned nice, for the times.

As opposed to, say, the Germans and Japanese of the times, we were
practically saints.

Thanks for pointing that out for us.

To be fair, you'd have to be pretty damned awful to *not* be a saint
compared to the German's and Japanese acts of WWII.
By the standards of our own democracy, the internment was a positive
wrong for the following reasons.

1. while it was true that many Japanese were not american citizens,
this was because by law, no Asian could be naturalized in the U.S.

Depends on when they arrived. My wife's grandfathers were naturalized;
they arrived before the later laws that would have made it impossible.

I have friends who either spent the war at Manzanar and Tule Lake, or
their parents were interned there. The ones interned were citizens.

2. The citizens were detained with no evidence of wrong doing or
potential wrong doing, and in fact the FBI opposed the move.
3. There was no such detention in the one U.S. possession most
exposed to potential invasion.
4. There was no protection of their goods and lands from
expropriation-- most of Orange County used to be owned by Nisie

Nisei.

families. (and given California popular agitation against Asian land
ownership, I cannot help but think that at least some people saw this
as a very happy outcome).
and 5. At a time when the 442nd should have proven their loyalty
beyond a shadow of a doubt, they were kept in the interment
facilities.

Now, how is this different from Hiroshima? THere *were* other
options. The FBI's assuarnce that it had the situation under control
could have resulted in a more targeted sereis of internments, focusing
on those who were most likely to provide support to the Japanese
empire. Those interned could have had their property protected.

But the historian in me wishes to point out that the nation was
different at the time. We *were* a racist nation-- lynching was going
on in the south, segregation was the unchallenged law of the land in
many parts of the U.S., and the idea of racial inequality was
enshrined in many peoples mind-- hell, it took the discovery of the
deathcamps-- the natural outcome of such doctrines, to shake things
loose. In that time, bad as it was, it could have been much worse.

I do know we've gotten far, FAR better. When 9/11 hit, my first
thoughts were to bomb the SOB's who had done it. My second thoughts
were fearfully wondering if my Muslim and arab friends were going to
catch a backlash. Fortunately, for all my dislike of some of the Bush
administrations decisions, and with the misteps that ever government
makes, they came down firmly against any actions against American
Muslims/arabs as a whole, and those who decided to taket he law into
their own hands are now safe from Bin Laden, courtesy of hte Federal
and State Judiciary systems.

In article ,
Chad Irby wrote:

In article ,
(robert arndt) wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:

Given that we didnt tie wounded POW's to trees
with barbed wire and use them for bayonent
pratctise I'd say no we didnt.

No, we just interned Japanese-Americans for years in camps behind
barbed wire at home.

If you think the two approaches were even very roughly comparable, you
have some serious problems.

Yep. We were pretty darned nice, for the times.

As were the Canadians, around the same time, btw.

As opposed to, say, the Germans and Japanese of the times, we were
practically saints.

Thanks for pointing that out for us.

Yep. We were pretty darned nice, for the times.

You neglected to mention that the internees were paid compensation and
given an apology. I don't recall that my friend Dick O'Kane got either
from the Japanese who starved and worked and beat him down to 98
pounds in one year.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:36:18 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:


Yep. We were pretty darned nice, for the times.

You neglected to mention that the internees were paid compensation and
given an apology. I don't recall that my friend Dick O'Kane got either
from the Japanese who starved and worked and beat him down to 98
pounds in one year.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Or the Korean "comfort women", or the Korean slave workers, or the
American and British Civilians...or the literally tens of millions of
Chinese, filipino's and other's who had the misfortune to be
"liberated" by the Japanese.
Japan, with some exceptions (mostly personal, not governmental) has
a very large policy of forgetfulness with those actions...and in other
cases continues to try to justify them.
Especially egregious is the lawsuits that are dropped because you
cannot get compensation because "it was already settled" in
peacetreaties that never brought the matter up.

I believe that the internment camps were a disgrace, and an
unamerican act, especially as the 442nd was proving its loyalty in
blood.
But to imagine for the slightest moment that that injustice
compares-- can even be compared-- to the wholesale slaughter of
Germany and Japan's brutal occupations and death camps would be absurd
if it wasn't so popular a point of view.
The internment WASN'T comparable to those acts-- but it was a dark
moment in U.S. history because we are, and should be, judged to a
higher standard than the governments that only worshipped brute force.

I would also mention, that although I think the apology did come
too late, it was an act of congress, signed into law by the
president-- so it wasn't simply an apology by any single group, it was
an apology on behalf of the United States, and its' citizens, from our
elected leaders.

From: Charles Gray


On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:36:18 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:


Yep. We were pretty darned nice, for the times.

You neglected to mention that the internees were paid compensation and
given an apology. I don't recall that my friend Dick O'Kane got either
from the Japanese who starved and worked and beat him down to 98
pounds in one year.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Or the Korean "comfort women", or the Korean slave workers, or the
American and British Civilians...or the literally tens of millions of
Chinese, filipino's and other's who had the misfortune to be
"liberated" by the Japanese.
Japan, with some exceptions (mostly personal, not governmental) has
a very large policy of forgetfulness with those actions...and in other
cases continues to try to justify them.
Especially egregious is the lawsuits that are dropped because you
cannot get compensation because "it was already settled" in
peacetreaties that never brought the matter up.

I believe that the internment camps were a disgrace, and an
unamerican act, especially as the 442nd was proving its loyalty in
blood.
But to imagine for the slightest moment that that injustice
compares-- can even be compared-- to the wholesale slaughter of
Germany and Japan's brutal occupations and death camps would be absurd
if it wasn't so popular a point of view.
The internment WASN'T comparable to those acts-- but it was a dark
moment in U.S. history because we are, and should be, judged to a
higher standard than the governments that only worshipped brute force.

I would also mention, that although I think the apology did come
too late, it was an act of congress, signed into law by the
president-- so it wasn't simply an apology by any single group, it was
an apology on behalf of the United States, and its' citizens, from our
elected leaders.


The U.S. DID do medical experiments on par with the Nazis. Think of the black
men in the syphilis experiments who were deliberately left untreated as an
example. In several states "mentally deficient" people were forcibly
sterilized. Maybe the U.S. didn't do these sorts of things to as many people,
but we did do it.

Antisemitism WAS rampant in many parts of the U.S. and was one of the reasons
FDR never included saving Jews in Nazi occupied territories. He was afraid he
would lose support for the war.

Having said all this the comparison between Nazi concentration camps and the
Japanese, Italian and German internment camps in the U.S. is uncalled for. For
one thing German internees were allowed to hang up pictures of Hitler. The
inmates of the Nazi camps weren't allowed to post pictures of Churchill, Stalin
or FDR.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"B2431" wrote in message
...

The U.S. DID do medical experiments on par with the Nazis. Think of the
black
men in the syphilis experiments who were deliberately left untreated as an
example. In several states "mentally deficient" people were forcibly
sterilized. Maybe the U.S. didn't do these sorts of things to as many
people,
but we did do it.

No, neither of those things is "on par with the Nazis" human experiments.
The Nazis did things like throw prisoners into ice water to see how
long they could survive.

John Keeney wrote:

"B2431" wrote in message
...

The U.S. DID do medical experiments on par with the Nazis. Think of the

black

men in the syphilis experiments who were deliberately left untreated as an
example. In several states "mentally deficient" people were forcibly
sterilized. Maybe the U.S. didn't do these sorts of things to as many

people,

but we did do it.


No, neither of those things is "on par with the Nazis" human experiments.
The Nazis did things like throw prisoners into ice water to see how
long they could survive.



How about the time they injected plutonium into hospital patients to see
what would happen? That comes pretty close IMO

John

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:01:12 +0000, John Mullen
wrote:

John Keeney wrote:

"B2431" wrote in message
...

The U.S. DID do medical experiments on par with the Nazis. Think of the

black

men in the syphilis experiments who were deliberately left untreated as an
example. In several states "mentally deficient" people were forcibly
sterilized. Maybe the U.S. didn't do these sorts of things to as many

people,

but we did do it.


No, neither of those things is "on par with the Nazis" human experiments.
The Nazis did things like throw prisoners into ice water to see how
long they could survive.



How about the time they injected plutonium into hospital patients to see
what would happen? That comes pretty close IMO

John

I think it comes very close-- in the sense the crimes were
committed. Nobody's saying the U.S was perfect, and in fact I
consider it a great wrong that when these expiriments were revealed,
the surviving doctors and administrators (and since they were done in
the 30's, there would be some), were not prosecuted for their crimes.