Pre WW1 insignia

JDupre5762 wrote:

Just when did various nations adopt the various cross and cockade or
roundel insignia? Was it after WW1 started and the need for recognition
became apparent or did some nations adopt an insignia before WW1?

When did the US adopt the Star with a dot insignia? I know that they used
a roundel style similar to the French style in WW1 while in Europe. Did
US aircraft based stateside use the same insignia as the European combat
aircraft or did they use the star?

The pilots of the Lafayette Escadrille used the French roundel,
naturally. When the US entered the war, we were flying French planes
with a modified roundel (the order of the colors was altered.). I
believe it was at the instigation of Billy Mitchell that the roundel
with the star and red dot was adopted - something to the effect of "I
don't want my boys flying around with a goddamn target on the side of
their planes."

The red dot, of course, was dropped in 1942.

-Marc

--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

In article , Marc Reeve
writes
JDupre5762 wrote:

Just when did various nations adopt the various cross and cockade or
roundel insignia? Was it after WW1 started and the need for recognition
became apparent or did some nations adopt an insignia before WW1?

When did the US adopt the Star with a dot insignia? I know that they used
a roundel style similar to the French style in WW1 while in Europe. Did
US aircraft based stateside use the same insignia as the European combat
aircraft or did they use the star?

The pilots of the Lafayette Escadrille used the French roundel,
naturally.

I remember, some time ago, seeing a picture of an Escadrille Lafayette
aircraft with large swastikas painted on - and my assumption was that
the pilot must have had a liking for Navaho designs. Can anyone jog my
memory?

Re. the swastika, I was in Jaipur, India, last year, and almost every
auto-taxi had a swastika painted on the front. Big editing job for any
travel film to be shown in Germany, I guess.

And on a practical note; try to avoid taking a cab ride with a driver
who believes in reincarnation....

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

JDupre5762 wrote:

Just when did various nations adopt the various cross and cockade or
roundel insignia? Was it after WW1 started and the need for recognition
became apparent or did some nations adopt an insignia before WW1?

The US actually used a red star (like the Soviets) for a
short period of time before US entry into WWI.


SMH

Stephen Harding wrote:
JDupre5762 wrote:

Just when did various nations adopt the various cross and cockade or
roundel insignia? Was it after WW1 started and the need for recognition
became apparent or did some nations adopt an insignia before WW1?


The US actually used a red star (like the Soviets) for a
short period of time before US entry into WWI.



Really?

But:-

1) I always thought the US didn't have much air power until after WW1

2) The Soviet Union certainly didn't exist until 1917, the same year the
US joined the war.

So, how do you mean?

John

John Mullen wrote:

Stephen Harding wrote:

JDupre5762 wrote:

Just when did various nations adopt the various cross and cockade or
roundel insignia? Was it after WW1 started and the need for recognition
became apparent or did some nations adopt an insignia before WW1?

The US actually used a red star (like the Soviets) for a
short period of time before US entry into WWI.

Really?

It surprised me too. The source for this is the New England Air
Museum which had a photograph of a red star marked US plane and
an info card stating this was the national marking for a brief
time. I checked their page and a general Google search and can't
find any more about this, but the source and photo was definitely
seen during my last visit to NEAM a few years ago.

But:-

1) I always thought the US didn't have much air power until after WW1

I think the first US military aircraft dates to about 1909, and red
star emblem dates to pre-1917, in fact pre-1914 IIRC.

2) The Soviet Union certainly didn't exist until 1917, the same year the
US joined the war.

Right. The US red star emblem had been replaced by the roundel by
then.


SMH

Stephen Harding wrote:


It surprised me too. The source for this is the New England Air
Museum which had a photograph of a red star marked US plane and
an info card stating this was the national marking for a brief
time. I checked their page and a general Google search and can't
find any more about this, but the source and photo was definitely
seen during my last visit to NEAM a few years ago.


The USAF museum confirms the 1916 red star:

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/insignia.htm


Andreas

Andreas Parsch wrote:
Stephen Harding wrote:


It surprised me too. The source for this is the New England Air
Museum which had a photograph of a red star marked US plane and
an info card stating this was the national marking for a brief
time. I checked their page and a general Google search and can't
find any more about this, but the source and photo was definitely
seen during my last visit to NEAM a few years ago.



The USAF museum confirms the 1916 red star:

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/insignia.htm


Andreas



Fascinating. Thank you both.

John

Andreas Parsch wrote:

Stephen Harding wrote:

It surprised me too. The source for this is the New England Air
Museum which had a photograph of a red star marked US plane and
an info card stating this was the national marking for a brief
time. I checked their page and a general Google search and can't
find any more about this, but the source and photo was definitely
seen during my last visit to NEAM a few years ago.

The USAF museum confirms the 1916 red star:

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/insignia.htm

Thanks Andreas.

Ya got me off the hook!


SMH

Andreas Parsch wrote:
Stephen Harding wrote:


It surprised me too. The source for this is the New England Air
Museum which had a photograph of a red star marked US plane and
an info card stating this was the national marking for a brief
time. I checked their page and a general Google search and can't
find any more about this, but the source and photo was definitely
seen during my last visit to NEAM a few years ago.


The USAF museum confirms the 1916 red star:

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/insignia.htm

This site also confirms that I got my facts back-asswards - it was Billy
Mitchell who got the red-blue-white (outside to inside) roundel adopted,
for similarity to our allies' roundels (blue-white-red for the Brits,
red-white-blue for the French.).
Andreas


--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
John Mullen wrote:

Stephen Harding wrote:

JDupre5762 wrote:

Just when did various nations adopt the various cross and cockade or
roundel insignia? Was it after WW1 started and the need for
recognition
became apparent or did some nations adopt an insignia before WW1?

The US actually used a red star (like the Soviets) for a
short period of time before US entry into WWI.

Really?

It surprised me too. The source for this is the New England Air
Museum which had a photograph of a red star marked US plane and
an info card stating this was the national marking for a brief
time. I checked their page and a general Google search and can't
find any more about this, but the source and photo was definitely
seen during my last visit to NEAM a few years ago.

But:-

1) I always thought the US didn't have much air power until after WW1

I think the first US military aircraft dates to about 1909, and red
star emblem dates to pre-1917, in fact pre-1914 IIRC.

You have to careful calling that a "national emblem": pre 1917 there
were no national emblems, each service had it's own. The Navy used a
blue anchor from late 1916 until the May 1917 adoption of the red
circle on white star on blue circle emblem.

2) The Soviet Union certainly didn't exist until 1917, the same year the
US joined the war.

Right. The US red star emblem had been replaced by the roundel by
then.


SMH