Mandatory Radios

Mandating radios leads to a false sense of security.
If I don't hear someone, no one must be there.

We train people that RADIOS FAIL or get "stepped on" by other transmissions.
Do not rely solely or trust radios.
Batteries can fail or loose charge.

We encourage the use of radio's in all of our equipment.
We fly from a fairly busy uncontrolled GA airport with two parallel runways.
Glider traffic on one side and power (other than tow) on the other.

We only have 1 club glider that does not have an "installed" radio.
People use a club or personal handheld in that glider.
My personal ICOM has a "speaker/mic" that plugs into the headset plugs and I
attach the speaker/mic to the shoulder harness.

The accident tow plane not having a radio can be considered a "contributing
factor", but it is not the underlying cause.
The high wind situation in the accident can be considered a "contributing
factor", but it is not the underlying cause.
The accident glider on a "non-standard" traffic pattern can be considered a
"contributing factor", but it is not the underlying cause.

Both pilots failed in the #1 responsibility during VMC flight, to SEE and
AVOID.

BT

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...
The majority of clubs and FBO's in Region 11 have gone to a mandatory
radio policy after the recent midair where the tow plane and glider
collided turning final. The tow plane was not radio equipped and
therefore didn't know (hear) that the glider was turning final from
the other direction. That makes 4 fatalities in this region caused by
lack of communication between the tow pilot and glider!

Several clubs are using hand-held radios for ships that don't have
radios. I flew last Sunday with a hand-held radio and it took some
getting use to. First off, where do you put it so you can hear the
speaker? Also, I found transmitting combersome................pick it
up with left hand, turn the mike toward you and squeeze key while
flying with right hand. Then I clipped it to the right side of my
collar using the big spring clip on the radio. That worked well as it
was clase enough to hear and simply rotate and press the mike button
to transmit. I believe students would need some guidance like this to
be able to make the required radio calls using a hand-held radio. It
looks like most tow pilots are using helmets with head-sets so they
can hear their radios. Also, a com-check before takeoff is essential
to make sure both radios are on and working, volume up, squelch set
and on the correct frequency. I used the $200 ICOM from Wings & Wheels
and found it quite satisfactory.

We can survive a lot of things in this sport, but running into each
other isn't one of them!
JJ

On Feb 5, 6:45*pm, "BT" wrote:
Mandating radios leads to a false sense of security.
If I don't hear someone, no one must be there.

We train people that RADIOS FAIL or get "stepped on" by other transmissions.
Do not rely solely or trust radios.
Batteries can fail or loose charge.

We encourage the use of radio's in all of our equipment.
We fly from a fairly busy uncontrolled GA airport with two parallel runways.
Glider traffic on one side and power (other than tow) on the other.

We only have 1 club glider that does not have an "installed" radio.
People use a club or personal handheld in that glider.
My personal ICOM has a "speaker/mic" that plugs into the headset plugs and I
attach the speaker/mic to the shoulder harness.

The accident tow plane not having a radio can be considered a "contributing
factor", but it is not the underlying cause.
The high wind situation in the accident can be considered a "contributing
factor", but it is not the underlying cause.
The accident glider on a "non-standard" traffic pattern can be considered a
"contributing factor", but it is not the underlying cause.

Both pilots failed in the #1 responsibility during VMC flight, to SEE and
AVOID.

BT

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message

...



The majority of clubs and FBO's in Region 11 have gone to a mandatory
radio policy after the recent midair where the tow plane and glider
collided turning final. The tow plane was not radio equipped and
therefore didn't know (hear) that the glider was turning final from
the other direction. That makes 4 fatalities in this region caused by
lack of communication between the tow pilot and glider!

Several clubs are using hand-held radios for ships that don't have
radios. I flew last Sunday with a hand-held radio and it took some
getting use to. First off, where do you put it so you can hear the
speaker? Also, I found transmitting combersome................pick it
up with left hand, turn the mike toward you and squeeze key while
flying with right hand. Then I clipped it to the right side of my
collar using the big spring clip on the radio. That worked well as it
was clase enough to hear and simply rotate and press the mike button
to transmit. I believe students would need some guidance like this to
be able to make the required radio calls using a hand-held radio. It
looks like most tow pilots are using helmets with head-sets so they
can hear their radios. Also, a com-check before takeoff is essential
to make sure both radios are on and working, volume up, squelch set
and on the correct frequency. I used the $200 ICOM from Wings & Wheels
and found it quite satisfactory.

We can survive a lot of things in this sport, but running into each
other isn't one of them!
JJ- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The FAA and NTSB both acknowledge that "see and be seen" doesn't
always work, especially at higher speeds. In this case both pilots
attention was riveted on making a difficult landing in high winds with
a cross-wind component. Once they turned final each was in the others
blind spot as both aircraft were belly to belly. I believe this
accident would not have happened if either pilot knew the other was
attempting to land at the same time on the same
runway..........................................Al low me to restate my
position on mandatory radios: Four fatalities in region 11 could have
been prevented if the tow pilot and glider pilot had been in radio
contact.
JJ

A working radio should be required, at the least by the flying clubs.
Here in Germany most places I have flown require a radio check before
a launch. This is something I just can't get my mind around, not
having a working/mounted radio in every plane. And I don't think a
handheld meets this requirement unless it has a mounting in the plane,
therefore it wouldn't be a handheld.I don't want to be flying around
an airfield without pilots using proper (whatever that is) radio
verbage!

Flamesuit on!

Bob

On 2/6/2010 5:34 AM, Bob wrote:
A working radio should be required, at the least by the flying clubs.
Here in Germany most places I have flown require a radio check before
a launch. This is something I just can't get my mind around, not
having a working/mounted radio in every plane. And I don't think a
handheld meets this requirement unless it has a mounting in the plane,
therefore it wouldn't be a handheld.I don't want to be flying around
an airfield without pilots using proper (whatever that is) radio
verbage!

Flamesuit on!

Bob
This leads to the fundamental problem. We can buy handhelds for ~$200,
but a panel mount radio costs ~$1,000. If we could somehow get the
price of panel mount radios down to the handheld price, every glider in
the US would have one.

--
Mike Schumann

This leads to the fundamental problem. We can buy handhelds for ~$200,
but a panel mount radio costs ~$1,000. If we could somehow get the price
of panel mount radios down to the handheld price, every glider in the US
would have one.

I suspect this boils down to panel mount radios being TSOed and
handhelds being not.

On 2/6/2010 8:20 AM, John Smith wrote:
This leads to the fundamental problem. We can buy handhelds for ~$200,
but a panel mount radio costs ~$1,000. If we could somehow get the price
of panel mount radios down to the handheld price, every glider in the US
would have one.

I suspect this boils down to panel mount radios being TSOed and
handhelds being not.
Is that the real reason, or is it the smaller production volumes?

--
Mike Schumann

On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 23:44:23 -0800, JJ Sinclair wrote:

The FAA and NTSB both acknowledge that "see and be seen" doesn't always
work, especially at higher speeds. In this case both pilots attention
was riveted on making a difficult landing in high winds with a
cross-wind component. Once they turned final each was in the others
blind spot as both aircraft were belly to belly. I believe this accident
would not have happened if either pilot knew the other was attempting to
land at the same time on the same runway.

My club has never mandated circuit direction, but we do train ab initios
to look out for traffic on downwind on the other side of the run and
flying base leg in the opposite direction. AFAIK we've not had any in-
circuit accidents due to this factor.

We do now encourage radio use. Call to announce your intentions and where
you're coming from at 5km or so when returning after an xc task and again
on downwind after joining the circuit to announce your chosen run and
circuit direction.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

JJ
I'll agree... to a point..
Radio's are good..
Radio's fail..
Mandating Radios may lead to a false sense of security.. Train otherwise
Radio gets blocked by another transmission..
Low battery.. you can hear but not transmit (glider).. and you don't know it
I would change "could have been prevented.." to "may have been prevented.."
There is no certainty.

My heart goes out to those involved.. we dodged the bullet on a mid air,
everyone survived.
It was not in the traffic pattern and a radio made no difference because not
being in the pattern, no broadcast were made.
BT

- Show quoted text -

The FAA and NTSB both acknowledge that "see and be seen" doesn't
always work, especially at higher speeds. In this case both pilots
attention was riveted on making a difficult landing in high winds with
a cross-wind component. Once they turned final each was in the others
blind spot as both aircraft were belly to belly. I believe this
accident would not have happened if either pilot knew the other was
attempting to land at the same time on the same
runway..........................................Al low me to restate my
position on mandatory radios: Four fatalities in region 11 could have
been prevented if the tow pilot and glider pilot had been in radio
contact.
JJ

On Feb 6, 7:33*am, "BT" wrote:
JJ
I'll agree... to a point..
Radio's are good..
Radio's fail..
Mandating Radios may lead to a false sense of security.. Train otherwise
Radio gets blocked by another transmission..
Low battery.. you can hear but not transmit (glider).. and you don't know it
I would change "could have been prevented.." to "may have been prevented..."
There is no certainty.

My heart goes out to those involved.. we dodged the bullet on a mid air,
everyone survived.
It was not in the traffic pattern and a radio made no difference because not
being in the pattern, no broadcast were made.
BT



- Show quoted text -

The FAA and NTSB both acknowledge that "see and be seen" doesn't
always work, especially at higher speeds. In this case both pilots
attention was riveted on making a difficult landing in high winds with
a cross-wind component. Once they turned final each was in the others
blind spot as both aircraft were belly to belly. I believe this
accident would not have happened if either pilot knew the other was
attempting to land at the same time on the same
runway..........................................Al low me to restate my
position on mandatory radios: Four fatalities in region 11 could have
been prevented if the tow pilot and glider pilot had been in radio
contact.
JJ- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We are pretty much in agreement here BT, but I have just seen too many
accidents that should never have happened:

The G-103 at Minden that had a functioning radio but the battery
probably went dead after a morning of pattern tows. Spoilers came open
on takeoff and the tow pilot called "Spoilers Open"! When he got no
response he gave the signal (rudder wag) which was misunderstood by an
instructor (probably because it was now obvious that a bad situation
was developing). At any rate the sailplane released just after
clearing the wires at the end of 30, made a 180 with spoilers still
full open and flew into the afore mentioned wires! The student was
severly injured and the instructor died in the hospital from
complications of his injuries (pneumonia).

What would have prevented this accident? A com-check before every
takeoff.

Then there was the Genesis flying the first practice day of the
Standard Class Nationals at Minden. The rules called for all takeoffs
to be on 123.3, but the manager hadn't implemented that on the
practice day, so the line crew and tow pilots were on 122.8. The
Genesis driver didn't know this because he didn't go to the briefing.
The Genesis rolled about 100 feet when the elevator fell off because
the pilot hadn't secured the locking mechanism. Both line crew called
"release" on 122.8 but that message wasn't heard on a radio tuned to
123.3. After lifting off the Genesis went into low tow and was stable
enough to hang on and try to get baliout altitude. It is not known if
the pilot ever got the message that he was aviating sans an elevator,
at any rate the glider released at about 1000 feet and almost
completed an outside loop, but not quite!

What would have prevented this accident? A com-check before every
takeoff.

No, BT I think I'll stay with, "Would have prevented".

JJ Sinclair

JJ Sinclair wrote:
Mandating Radios may lead to a false sense of security..

BS. A radio gives you additional options, that's all. *Of course* you
bear always in your mind that somebody else's radio may be inop.