Fed: Planes flying in "commercial" airspace must get GPS

VOR-DME writes:

In fairness to MX I think he meant that in the event of GPS unavailability,
airliners would be able to resort to their INS navigators, which small planes
do not have.

Yes.

I am not sure though that airliners will continue to be equipped
with INS systems after NextGen implementation, and even if they are this is
not good enough, as it cannot reliably provide better than RNP 1.0 and has no
approach capability.

That is one of my concerns also.

Many were hoping that LORAN-C would be retained and even
developed as a backup, but that was dashed recently when the system was
definitively abandoned.

Thanks to the same reckless policies that may decommission VORs and ultimately
ILS.

VOR’s are costly to maintain, and the FAA wants to
move away from them as quickly as possible (going back to my statement that
Victor airways are obsolescent and pilots so equipped should be filing \G as
much as possible already).

Safety is expensive. If you don't care about safety, you can save a lot of
money.

VORs can be used for RNAV, too. Flight management systems already do this,
since they use a blend of navigational aids in order to provide a more
reliable and precise position for the aircraft.

It could be that the best backup for GPS will be other satellite-based
structures, GONASS or soon to be GALILEO.

They all have common failure modes and vulnerabilities. A solar flare could
knock them all out at once. The only way around this is to have alternate
methods for navigation, such as VORs.

Mxsmanic wrote:
VOR-DME writes:

In fairness to MX I think he meant that in the event of GPS unavailability,
airliners would be able to resort to their INS navigators, which small planes
do not have.

Yes.

I am not sure though that airliners will continue to be equipped
with INS systems after NextGen implementation, and even if they are this is
not good enough, as it cannot reliably provide better than RNP 1.0 and has no
approach capability.

That is one of my concerns also.

Many were hoping that LORAN-C would be retained and even
developed as a backup, but that was dashed recently when the system was
definitively abandoned.

Thanks to the same reckless policies that may decommission VORs and ultimately
ILS.

VOR’s are costly to maintain, and the FAA wants to
move away from them as quickly as possible (going back to my statement that
Victor airways are obsolescent and pilots so equipped should be filing \G as
much as possible already).

Safety is expensive. If you don't care about safety, you can save a lot of
money.

VORs can be used for RNAV, too. Flight management systems already do this,
since they use a blend of navigational aids in order to provide a more
reliable and precise position for the aircraft.

It could be that the best backup for GPS will be other satellite-based
structures, GONASS or soon to be GALILEO.

They all have common failure modes and vulnerabilities. A solar flare could
knock them all out at once. The only way around this is to have alternate
methods for navigation, such as VORs.

You have no clue what the jamming susceptibility of modern GPS is or what
features exist (current and planned) to thwart it.

In reality, jamming effects a small area and is a real concern only to the
military which would expect jamming in the area of enemy targets.

A solar flare large enough to "knock them all out at once" would also take
out a lot of other stuff making the lack of GPS a minor issue.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

writes:

You have no clue what the jamming susceptibility of modern GPS is or what
features exist (current and planned) to thwart it.

Actually I do, as I've been following GPS since long before the average person
became aware of its existence. I'm afraid jamming is a serious potential
problem, for a number of reasons related directly to the technology of GPS and
to satellite communications in general. Spoofing is a serious issue, too,
which is why the DoD started encrypting its P code years ago. Unfortunately,
encryption is not a realistic option for civil aviation users, because of the
logistics of key distribution, and because it would make the signal unusable
to other user communities.

In reality, jamming effects a small area and is a real concern only to the
military which would expect jamming in the area of enemy targets.

Anyone can jam a GPS signal, and a small area is more than sufficient--if it
happens to be centered on New York City, for example. Spoofing requires more
sophistication, but hardly anything unattainable for bad guys.

A solar flare large enough to "knock them all out at once" would also take
out a lot of other stuff making the lack of GPS a minor issue.

If GPS is the only navigation option, it's a major issue even if other systems
are affected as well. VORs, at least, would still be available.

Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

You have no clue what the jamming susceptibility of modern GPS is or what
features exist (current and planned) to thwart it.

Actually I do, as I've been following GPS since long before the average person
became aware of its existence. I'm afraid jamming is a serious potential
problem, for a number of reasons related directly to the technology of GPS and
to satellite communications in general. Spoofing is a serious issue, too,
which is why the DoD started encrypting its P code years ago. Unfortunately,
encryption is not a realistic option for civil aviation users, because of the
logistics of key distribution, and because it would make the signal unusable
to other user communities.

Actually, you show you are clueless.

Minimizing the effects of jamming for anything other than a military grade,
high power jammer is a fairly trivial problem but civilians have no interest
as it is in the real civilian world a non problem not worth spending a single
dime.

In reality, jamming effects a small area and is a real concern only to the
military which would expect jamming in the area of enemy targets.

Anyone can jam a GPS signal, and a small area is more than sufficient--if it
happens to be centered on New York City, for example. Spoofing requires more
sophistication, but hardly anything unattainable for bad guys.

Yeah, and anyone can make a big bomb and blow up a building.

The response to both would be the same.

Which is but one reason civilian jamming is a non problem.

A solar flare large enough to "knock them all out at once" would also take
out a lot of other stuff making the lack of GPS a minor issue.

If GPS is the only navigation option, it's a major issue even if other systems
are affected as well. VORs, at least, would still be available.

What makes you think that?

What makes you think that if there were a solar flare large enough to "knock
them all out at once" there would even be a functioning power grid?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

wrote:
Minimizing the effects of jamming for anything other than a military
grade, high power jammer is a fairly trivial problem but civilians
have no interest as it is in the real civilian world a non problem not
worth spending a single dime.
....
What makes you think that if there were a solar flare large enough to
"knock them all out at once" there would even be a functioning power
grid?

This appears to be a case of someone who is disliked saying that
1.1 + 1 ~= 2 and someone who should know better dragging what would be a
perfectly reasonable assertion through the mud. For the record, solar
flares can interfere with GPS signals, probably seriously:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/...es.gps.TO.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...s-in-2011.html

Jim Logajan wrote:
wrote:
Minimizing the effects of jamming for anything other than a military
grade, high power jammer is a fairly trivial problem but civilians
have no interest as it is in the real civilian world a non problem not
worth spending a single dime.
...
What makes you think that if there were a solar flare large enough to
"knock them all out at once" there would even be a functioning power
grid?

This appears to be a case of someone who is disliked saying that
1.1 + 1 ~= 2 and someone who should know better dragging what would be a
perfectly reasonable assertion through the mud. For the record, solar
flares can interfere with GPS signals, probably seriously:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/...es.gps.TO.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...s-in-2011.html

No ****, but that's not the point.

The original statement was a solar flare large enough to "knock them all out
at once", which would take one hell of a solar flare and would likely be
a global catastrophe.

And if you are really serious about the subject, the run of the mill flare
will cause a temporary signal loss, which aviation GPS will detect, and
there is no particular reason to suspect that the current sunspot cycle
will prove to be anything other than run of the mill.

FYI the current solar flux is 74, mid-latitude A index is 26, the
mid-latitude K index is 3, and the SSN is 43.

If you want to worry about things with remote possibilities, worry about
a huge CME that hits the Earth which would fry everything electronic.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

writes:

And if you are really serious about the subject, the run of the mill flare
will cause a temporary signal loss, which aviation GPS will detect, and
there is no particular reason to suspect that the current sunspot cycle
will prove to be anything other than run of the mill.

If your GPS becomes unreliable, and you have no other means of navigation,
what do you do? Just knowing that GPS has failed doesn't help you much if you
have no back-up.

writes:

Minimizing the effects of jamming for anything other than a military grade,
high power jammer is a fairly trivial problem but civilians have no interest
as it is in the real civilian world a non problem not worth spending a single
dime.

That's the way people usually feel until someone is killed, then they
overreact.

Yeah, and anyone can make a big bomb and blow up a building.

The response to both would be the same.

The fact that it can be done doesn't mean that the risk should be disregarded.

Which is but one reason civilian jamming is a non problem.

I'm not sure what you mean by civilians. I suppose terrorists or troublemakers
would not necessarily be active members of any military organization.

What makes you think that if there were a solar flare large enough to "knock
them all out at once" there would even be a functioning power grid?

They don't have to all be knocked out at once.

Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

Minimizing the effects of jamming for anything other than a military grade,
high power jammer is a fairly trivial problem but civilians have no interest
as it is in the real civilian world a non problem not worth spending a single
dime.

That's the way people usually feel until someone is killed, then they
overreact.

Irrelevant to the arguement and an attempt to steer the arguement in a
different direction.

Yeah, and anyone can make a big bomb and blow up a building.

The response to both would be the same.

The fact that it can be done doesn't mean that the risk should be disregarded.

Have you ever heard of the FCC?

The remote possibility is not totally disregarded, it is given the attention
it desereves, i.e. very little as it is very unlikely.

Which is but one reason civilian jamming is a non problem.

I'm not sure what you mean by civilians. I suppose terrorists or troublemakers
would not necessarily be active members of any military organization.

Civilians mean people not in the military.

Jamming is a non problem for civilian aircraft not flying in a war zone.

What makes you think that if there were a solar flare large enough to "knock
them all out at once" there would even be a functioning power grid?

They don't have to all be knocked out at once.

So now you think that maybe there will be a series of large solar flares?

Do you understand the difference between temporary signal interference and
"knock them all out"?

You are babbling.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

writes:

Jamming is a non problem for civilian aircraft not flying in a war zone.

Read any NOTAMs lately?