World Class Nationals (US)

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 06:53:06 -0700 (PDT), CLewis95
wrote:

I'm very curious to know how the World Class is doing (dare I say
growing) in other parts of the world (other than USA). Comments?

Speaking for Germany, the World class here has always been regarded as
a joke - and people flying PW-5s instead of standard or club class
gliders have been laughed at. No joke.

General consensus here is that someone who buys a glider with Ka-6
performance for the same price as a used LS-4 must be mentally ill.

I don't know of any PW-5 that has ever been purchased by a German
club.

Of course there are lots of good and reasonably priced used gliders
available here.

Cheers
Andreas

On Jun 11, 11:50*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
Speaking for Germany, the World class here has always been regarded as
a joke - and people flying PW-5s instead of standard or club class
gliders have been laughed at. No joke.

General consensus here is that someone who buys a glider with Ka-6
performance for the same price as a used LS-4 must be mentally ill.

I'd really love to know where all these mythical LS4s are.

Our two PW5s cost us NZ$25k each brand new, which would have been
around $15k or 13k EUR at the time.

If I recall correctly, they came out from Europe in the same container
as some gliders coming for the '95 Worlds. I also seem to recall that
people were still flying LS4s in the Worlds at that time.

The used glider alternative would have been a Libelle or Cirrus from
the early 70's.

Those certainly have more performance than a PW5, but they are far
less suitable for early solo flying and first cross country flying and
outlandings. The Cirrus has a belly hook and an all flying tail. Both
have much more marginal airbrakes than more recent designs.

We throw people in the PW5 after about 5 solo flights in the Grob
(back then) or DG1000 now. Would you do that with a Libelle or Cirrus?
I don't think so.

I'd certainly be interested to learn if German clubs do it with an
LS4.

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:59:28 -0700 (PDT), Bruce Hoult
wrote:


I'd really love to know where all these mythical LS4s are.

http://www.segelflug.de/classifieds/

For example:
ASW-19, without instruments, otherwise good condition, 16.600 Eur
LS-4 23.500 Eur
DG-300 22.000 Eur
ASW-15 12.000 Eur



Our two PW5s cost us NZ$25k each brand new, which would have been
around $15k or 13k EUR at the time.

Well... at this time we still had the D-Mark, the PW-5 being
significantly more expensive than a used LS-4 at this time, definitely
beyond the 35.000 DM border.


Those certainly have more performance than a PW5, but they are far
less suitable for early solo flying and first cross country flying and
outlandings. The Cirrus has a belly hook and an all flying tail. Both
have much more marginal airbrakes than more recent designs.

Maybe some of the 1st generation gliders have some disadvantages
compared to a PW-5, but certainly not the ASW-19 and later gliders.


We throw people in the PW5 after about 5 solo flights in the Grob
(back then) or DG1000 now. Would you do that with a Libelle or Cirrus?
I don't think so.

I'd certainly be interested to learn if German clubs do it with an
LS4.

They do, although usually there are solo flights required on the
double seater (we usually use the winch).


But that's not the point.
Worldclass was a clear failure due to the chosen glider. The success
uf Club class demonstrates what people really want.

Andreas

On Jun 12, 10:26*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:59:28 -0700 (PDT), Bruce Hoult

wrote:
I'd really love to know where all these mythical LS4s are.

http://www.segelflug.de/classifieds/

For example:
ASW-19, without instruments, otherwise good condition, 16.600 Eur
LS-4 23.500 Eur
DG-300 22.000 Eur
ASW-15 12.000 Eur

Note that that is now, not in 1995 when we bought our PW5s.

How deep is that market? What if 100 people join gliding tomorrow and
want to buy gliders? How about 1000?


Our two PW5s cost us NZ$25k each brand new, which would have been
around $15k or 13k EUR at the time.

Well... at this time we still had the D-Mark, the PW-5 being
significantly more expensive than a used LS-4 at this time, definitely
beyond the 35.000 DM border.

My recollection is that over long periods of time the DM was very
close to being the same value as the NZ$. In recent history, it's
always been very close to 1 EUR being the same as NZ$2. And, if I
recall correctly, you swapped DM for EUR at a rate of 1.95 in 1999.
So the NZ$/DM/EUR rates have been quite stable over this time period.
(far more stable than any of those currencies have been against the US
$ or Yen, for example)

The aircraft advertisements you quote above put the LS-4 at about
45000 DM *now*. I doubt that they were less than 35000 DM in 1995.
Probably they were at or above the current price.

We paid about 25000 DM for our PW5s. That is a lot less than the 35000
DM you give, not to mention the 45000 for a used LS-4 today.


But that's not the point.
Worldclass was a clear failure due to the chosen glider. The success
uf Club class demonstrates what people really want.

Surely the PW5 is not sufficiently worse than the Russia, or any other
entrant in that design contest, to make the chosen glider the reason
for failure? At the very least, you would have needed a completely
different set of goals for the design contest.

But in fact I think the main reason the World Class is a failure as a
competition class is due to the general world-wide decline of gliding.

Had the sport grown, as I'm sure we would all like, there would not be
enough used LS-4's, Discuses or even ASK6's to go around, at any
price. The advantage of a new glider, such as the PW5, is that as many
could be manufactured as required to meet demand, with prices probably
decreasing as a result.

People don't seem to appreciate how very inexpensive the PW5 was when
it was introduced (and would I think have remained given more demand).

On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 01:07:47 -0700 (PDT), Bruce Hoult
wrote:


Note that that is now, not in 1995 when we bought our PW5s.

How deep is that market? What if 100 people join gliding tomorrow and
want to buy gliders? How about 1000?

Since this question is completely fictional, this question doesn't
really matter, does it?


We paid about 25000 DM for our PW5s. That is a lot less than the 35000
DM you give, not to mention the 45000 for a used LS-4 today.

The PW-5 was offered for quite precisely 37.000 DM here in Germany
(one design criteria was that it ought to have been 30.000 DM at
maximum, which they couldn't hold). At that time we sold our ASW-20L
for 42.000 and our Twin 2 for 50.000 DM.



Surely the PW5 is not sufficiently worse than the Russia, or any other
entrant in that design contest, to make the chosen glider the reason
for failure? At the very least, you would have needed a completely
different set of goals for the design contest.

Not completely different, but specifications that would have made the
World Class glider attractive to clubs in countries where the biggest
market is (Germany, austria, Switzerland, GB, Netherlands).

This would have meant an LD of about 40, a fixed gear, automatic
control hookups (let's call this a fixed-gear LS-4) and would haqve
created a world-class trainer glider.
By completely ignoring this market the World Class never had a chance.


But in fact I think the main reason the World Class is a failure as a
competition class is due to the general world-wide decline of gliding.

I beg to differ.
It's always the same problem: Why should someone fly a (butt-ugly)
glider that offers the performance of the mid-1950s?

I don't know how things are on your side of the pond, but in many
European regions an L/D of about 40 is simply necessary to do some
serious XC flying (and make the glider in question attractive). You
are not going to find many gliders with an LD of less than 40 in
European clubs these days anymore.


Had the sport grown, as I'm sure we would all like, there would not be
enough used LS-4's, Discuses or even ASK6's to go around, at any
price. The advantage of a new glider, such as the PW5, is that as many
could be manufactured as required to meet demand, with prices probably
decreasing as a result.

I guess we've been through this discussion quite often now.

Unfortunately the sport didn't grow.
First step would have been to get new glider pilots, who then would
have created a demand for new gliders.


People don't seem to appreciate how very inexpensive the PW5 was when
it was introduced (and would I think have remained given more demand).

It was NOT inexpensive. It was always more expensive than most
used-gliders, yet offered significantly less performance.

Check the current SSA classifieds:
There's a PW-5 for sale for an amazing 28.000$. Same price as you had
to pay if you bought both the Libelle and the ASW-15 that are for
sale. Paying twice the money to buy something with a huge performance
penalty?