Forgiving sailplanes

bildan wrote:
My experience is the difference between the worst and
best handling glider is fairly small.

No. Give a low-time student an ASK-21 and he will happily thermal away.
Give the same student a Fox and he will kill himself.

On Jul 20, 2:55*pm, John Smith wrote:
bildan wrote:
My experience is the difference between the worst and
best handling glider is fairly small.

No. Give a low-time student an ASK-21 and he will happily thermal away.
Give the same student a Fox and he will kill himself.

Thanks for bringing up the Fox. Learn to fly one with a great
instructor and every other glider will seem like a pussycat. THEN,
you're a safe - at least from handling issues.

A competent pilot (meaning one who has trained in the Fox with an
expert) can fly a Fox safely AND fly the ASK-21 safely. The student
thermalling happily in an ASK-21 is neither competent nor safe since
he may have to land in a gusty crosswind among other things. The key
here isn't the glider, it's the pilot's skill.

No glider is so 'forgiving' that it will save a pilot from himself or
from the inevitable flukes of nature and few, if any, gliders are so
viscous a pilot can't be trained to fly them safely. Safety, to the
extent that it exists, is in the skill set a pilot brings to the task.

I learned to fly in an LK-10A - a glider whose spin characteristics
make a 2-32 seem like a pussycat. We trained all sorts to fly it and,
yes, there were a few accidents but they were the same kind students
have with 2-33's. Pilots were afraid of the LK's spin characteristics
so they were careful not to spin (a good thing). Instead of spinning,
they hit fences.

Let me repeat my key point - you can't buy safety, you have to earn it
with training, practice and RESPECT. If a pilot is so concerned about
his ability he's seeking to buy a 'safe'glider, he should spend his
money on more training.

bildan wrote:
On Jul 20, 2:55 pm, John wrote:
bildan wrote:
My experience is the difference between the worst and
best handling glider is fairly small.

No. Give a low-time student an ASK-21 and he will happily thermal away.
Give the same student a Fox and he will kill himself.

....
Let me repeat my key point - you can't buy safety, you have to earn it
....

Without any doubt. But you claimed that the difference in handling among
gliders was "fairly small". And this just isn't so.

On Jul 20, 5:24*pm, John Smith wrote:
bildan wrote:
On Jul 20, 2:55 pm, John *wrote:
bildan wrote:
My experience is the difference between the worst and
best handling glider is fairly small.

No. Give a low-time student an ASK-21 and he will happily thermal away..
Give the same student a Fox and he will kill himself.

... Let me repeat my key point - you can't buy safety, you have to earn it

...

Without any doubt. But you claimed that the difference in handling among
gliders was "fairly small". And this just isn't so.


It is so.

If you step outside the cloistered world of sailplanes into the world
of airplanes you'll find very wide differences. Withing the wide
world of aviation, sailplanes exist in a "fairly small" envelope of
handling qualities. There are outliers, of course, but the majority
are pretty much alike in being very benign, gentle aircraft. Pilots
whose entire experience is limited to sailplanes may tend to magnify
small differences others wouldn't notice.

I've never flown a glider with a 'bad rep' which lived up to it and I
have more than 200 types in my logbook. I once owned a Lark IS28B2
which, in come circles, has a bad reputation for unintentional spins.
You'll hear things like, "It'll just drop out from under you." This
isn't true.

I took one such pilot for a BFR check ride in the Lark. When I asked
him to demonstrate slow flight, he didn't notice the glider's
pronounced pre-stall buffet. It was shaking the glider until stuff
fell off the Velcro but HE was shaking even more than the glider.
When I took the controls, calmed him down and asked him to feel the
buffet, I was able to tell him, "See, it warns you before it stalls -
just feel for the buffet." For him it was an epiphany - he really
enjoyed the rest of the flight.

Same thing with a 2-32 which is a big old sweetheart. It has a nice
little shake to the stick which tells you it's too slow but you won't
feel it if you have a death grip. Yes, it'll spin but not without
warning.

On 7/20/2010 3:57 PM, bildan wrote:
Let me repeat my key point - you can't buy safety, you have to earn it
with training, practice and RESPECT. If a pilot is so concerned about
his ability he's seeking to buy a 'safe'glider, he should spend his
money on more training.

I believe you can buy safety, or at least more safety. Gliders are not
all certified to the same standard, and that is why the older gliders,
like the Std Cirrus, are not as forgiving as the newer gliders. And the
safety you can buy is not just easier handling, but things like
automatic hookups and crash-resistant cockpits.

But don't understand my use of the word "buy" to mean just "spend more
money"; it's more about the glider you select, not the amount you pay
for it. My real message: some gliders are safer to fly because they land
more slowly, have excellent glidepath control, don't want to spin, give
plenty of warning, recover quickly from mishandling, and generally offer
more protection screwups in a variety of ways.

A pilot that is qualified to assemble and fly a Nimbus 4 will have a
greater margin in an ASK 21. A pilot that can't manage a Nimbus 4 can
still be a very safe pilot in a Blanik. Gliders are not the same across
the spectrum available to the buyer.

I've flown my ASH 26 E for 15 years and 3000 hours with out any
accidents, so I believe I'm qualified to fly it. Do I believe I'd be
safer in an ASK 21? Yes! Occasionally, I do fly a slower, simpler
glider, and I'm amazed at how easy it is. It reminds that my safety
margins are smaller with my ASH 26 E, but I accept that because I enjoy
it so much it's worth the risk.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz