Accident at Szeged WGC

Boring cylinder finishes anyone?
UH

Boring (but safe) cylinder finishes!
I was rolling on the runway when another competitor did a low finish
right over me, even though the cylinder finish was in use at Parowan.
I thought he was trying to land in front of me for a second or two and
was ready to ground-loop out of his way, if
necessary................nope, just another hot-shot showing his
ignorance as he did his little macho-crotcho low pass and then pulled
up into a crowded pattern without a word over the radio!

Radio contact is no longer needed to get a good start or finish and
the most important use of the radio is to let each other know where we
are in relation to finishing and landing. Recommend the rules call for
a 4 mile call, finish and down-wind to XX radio calls.

I CD'd Air Sailing Sports Class last week and instructed all to call 4
miles, finish and down-wind to whatever and anyone below 500 feet
better be in the pattern or doing a rolling finish!

Hank, it is high time we get the unnecessary and unsafe line finish
out of US rules and instruct CD's to not allow any low finishes.
JJ (the outspoken trouble-maker)

On Jul 30, 1:03*pm, Herb wrote:

What a completely senseless and preventable accident. *Go back and
look at the vicious comments that were made here when BB suggested all
line finishes should be abolished in favor of the 500' and 1 mile
cylinder. *Mr. Larson's death should have been enough to quiet the
fans of low and fast. *Gliders have no business flying close to the
ground, same for other aircraft. *

You and JJ seem to be under the impression that the Szeged accident
resulted from a low altitude high speed approach. Reports from the
site indicate the glider, like some others finishing that day, was low
energy.

Do you have new information that conflicts with those reports?

If not, can you please explain how the finish type was a factor in the
accident.

Andy (GY)

You and JJ seem to be under the impression that the Szeged accident
resulted from a low altitude high speed approach. *Reports from the
site indicate the glider, like some others finishing that day, was low
energy.

Do you have new information that conflicts with those reports?

If not, can you please explain how the finish type was a factor in the
accident.

Andy (GY)

Low energy becomes evident at the end of your finish. The guy who
can't make the 500'/1mile cylinder calls for a straight-in landing.
The guy that finds himself with low energy while trying to make a 50'
finish line eats the fence/ hits a truck!
JJ

On Jul 30, 2:47*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:

Low energy becomes evident at the end of your finish. The guy who
can't make the 500'/1mile cylinder calls for a straight-in landing.
The guy that finds himself with low energy while trying to make a 50'
finish line eats the fence/ hits a truck!
JJ

A low energy final glide should be evident long before reaching either
the finish cylinder or one mile from a finish line. If there is no
lift and a marginal glide to the airport the choice is to either land
out or try to get over the fence. The pilot who passed through the
finish cylinder at best L/D and 200 ft is in exactly the same
situation as the guy at best L/D and 200ft and a mile out going for a
line finish or a rolling finish. The finish type makes no difference
when there is insufficient energy to make the airport but the pilot
continues to try for the airport.

The argument that the finish cylinder would increase safety in this
scenario may be valid if the pilot has the option to stop and work
lift to get up to minimum finish altitude. It may also be true that
there is an increase in safety if pilot choses to landout after making
the cylinder finish. That requires landable areas between the
cylinder circumference and the airport.

As a result of the accident WGC has changed from a line finish to a
cylinder finish. The Friday task sheet defines the finish as cylinder
R=3.0 km with a 140M QNH min finish altitude. According to the
turnpoints database Szeged is at 80M. Unless my calculations are
wrong the required L/D from a valid finish to the airport is 50:1.

The same choce remains - try to clear the fence or landout. The
points penalty for landing out is gone though, and maybe that's enough
to make it safer. Let's hope so.


Andy

On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:50:47 -0700 (PDT), Andy
wrote:


A low energy final glide should be evident long before reaching either
the finish cylinder or one mile from a finish line. If there is no
lift and a marginal glide to the airport the choice is to either land
out or try to get over the fence.

Sounds simple in theory, but seems to be harder in reality.

A typical accident report can be found he
http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_005/nn_223...tar3_Sdier.pdf

Even for the non-German speaking readers of this newsgroup the
flightpath plot should make fascinating reading - the pilot tried to
follow his team mates who happened to be 100 ft higher.

Fortunately in this case the pilot was only slightly injured.

Cheers
Andreas

On Jul 30, 5:17*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jul 30, 1:03*pm, Herb wrote:

What a completely senseless and preventable accident. *Go back and
look at the vicious comments that were made here when BB suggested all
line finishes should be abolished in favor of the 500' and 1 mile
cylinder. *Mr. Larson's death should have been enough to quiet the
fans of low and fast. *Gliders have no business flying close to the
ground, same for other aircraft. *

You and JJ seem to be under the impression that the Szeged accident
resulted from a low altitude high speed approach. *Reports from the
site indicate the glider, like some others finishing that day, was low
energy.

Do you have new information that conflicts with those reports?

If not, can you please explain how the finish type was a factor in the
accident.

Andy (GY)

The difference is that the direct finish, flown perfectly means you
cross the finish line(airport boundary?) at exactly your average speed
for the task and at as little altitude as you dare. It doesn't take
much to have that go wrong.
The issue of safety of people other than the pilots is mostly a factor
of whether potential victims are in the flight path as opposed to
finishes across a lake(like Finland or big fields as we had in
Germany).
I suspect we will see a trend, even in Europe, away from direct
finishes.
Also a factor is this is the "big race" and people will take risks
they would not take any other time.
I speak from experience on this.
FWIW
UH

You're all a bunch of girlie men, being led by hysterics. Have all of
you aligned your cycles. We have been down this road before and it
seems some continue to want to bubble wrap the world from any
possiblility of pain or failure.
This attempt at fine tuning the rules to cover all the possiblilties
is futile. Mankind can make only so many feet of guard rails and
airbags.
Old men are ruining this sport.
R

On Jul 30, 8:51*am, Tony wrote:
Hauntingly similar to the Hawker collision.

How so?

the large wing parts left stuck in the truck reminded me of the Hawker
crash:

http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/007288.html

and what that jet would have looked like had it been a tiny bit lower
and taken the wing through the window.

On Jul 30, 9:10*pm, brianDG303 wrote:
On Jul 30, 8:51*am, Tony wrote:

Hauntingly similar to the Hawker collision.

How so?

the large wing parts left stuck in the truck reminded me of the Hawker
crash:

http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/007288.html

and what that jet would have looked like had it been a tiny bit lower
and taken the wing through the window.

ok i'll give you that.

On Jul 31, 8:47*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Boring cylinder finishes anyone?
UH

Boring *(but safe) cylinder finishes!
I was rolling on the runway when another competitor did a low finish
right over me, even though the cylinder finish was in use at Parowan.
I thought he was trying to land in front of me for a second or two and
was ready to ground-loop out of his way, if
necessary................nope, just another hot-shot showing his
ignorance as he did his little macho-crotcho low pass and then pulled
up into a crowded pattern without a word over the radio!

Radio contact is no longer needed to get a good start or finish and
the most important use of the radio is to let each other know where we
are in relation to finishing and landing. Recommend the rules call for
a 4 mile call, finish and down-wind to XX radio calls.

I CD'd Air Sailing Sports Class last week and instructed all to call 4
miles, finish and down-wind to whatever and anyone below 500 feet
better be in the pattern or doing a rolling finish!

Hank, it is high time we get the unnecessary and unsafe line finish
out of US rules and instruct CD's to not allow any low finishes.
JJ (the outspoken trouble-maker)


You yanks crack me up...

The fact that he may have had his wheel and flaps down when he hit the
truck has nothing to do with it, lets not actually wait until the
whole fact are known, nah let's jump in and make lots of assumptions,
don't you think if he was in fact completing a high speed comp finish
the pilot would be dead???

No, you guys would rather have multiple gliders coming from different
directions at high speed with all the pilots focussing on looking at
there GPS's screens.

It seems to me that when you guys were all flying comps when you were
younger there seemed to be no problem with low level finish but now
your are all over 65 it's all to dangerous.

So lets ban comp finish, but make it perfectly alright to complete a
task after you have had a midair.