Another Blow to Airbus

On Aug 9, 2:30*am, John Smith wrote:
brian whatcott wrote:
It is more troubling if pilots can get into the danger area (maneuver
speed plus as you know) and still inadvertently pull bits off if
correctly trained.

The most troubling part is that many pilots think the cannot pull bits
off below maneuver speed.

Make that most pilots.

Cheers

On Aug 9, 2:23*am, brian whatcott wrote:
On 8/8/2010 7:05 AM, a wrote:

A couple of days ago the NTSB found the 320 series to have too
sensitive a rudder, it can be torn off with peddle pressures. What's
especially of interest is the problem seems to persist even when crews
are given special training about the problem.

There are some details here.

http://content.usatoday.com/communit.../2010/08/ntsb-...

The more I fly and the older I get the more I want to be gentle with
the flight controls. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons
lurking near the edges of the envelope.

I am not going to act all shocked that pilots can pull pieces off of an
airframe: these pieces include
1) Wings
2) horizontal elevator/stabilator
3) vertical stabilizer, and pieces hinged or connected to the above.

That includes EVERY plane that has a certificate of airworthiness.

It is more troubling if pilots can get into the danger area (maneuver
speed plus as you know) and still inadvertently pull bits off if
correctly trained. * *A very troubling thought: how many incidents had
ex military fighter pilots at the yoke?

Good points. It is possible that fighter trained pilots may have a
lower awareness of the fragility of aircraft since their planes are so
strong. The fact remains that full opposite rudder deflection in a yaw
can produce very large fin loads with increased bending moment perhaps
the biggest problem. After all, Va is not defined for the fin but only
for the wings.

Cheers

Cheers

In article
,
a wrote:

A couple of days ago the NTSB found the 320 series to have too
sensitive a rudder, it can be torn off with peddle pressures. What's
especially of interest is the problem seems to persist even when crews
are given special training about the problem.


I would guess that Airbus has a lot of pressure to peddle them! ;)

That said, a friend (AA -- ret) has no kind words for the 320 -- he much
preferred the Boeings.


There are some details here.

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...ntsb-airbus-a3
20-has-rudder-flaw-linked-to-deadly-2001-crash/1

The more I fly and the older I get the more I want to be gentle with
the flight controls. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons
lurking near the edges of the envelope.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

.. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons
lurking near the edges of the envelope.


Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

On Aug 9, 1:47*pm, RST Engineering wrote:
On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons

lurking near the edges of the envelope.

Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. *Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. *That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

Actually, if the truth be known, not that exceeding the right side
won't get you killed, it's the LEFT side of the envelope that gets
most pilots in trouble. :-))
Dudley Henriques

On Aug 9, 3:15*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
On Aug 9, 1:47*pm, RST Engineering wrote:

On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons

lurking near the edges of the envelope.

Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. *Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. *That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

Actually, if the truth be known, not that exceeding the right side
won't get you killed, it's the LEFT side of the envelope that gets
most pilots in trouble. :-))
Dudley Henriques

We SEL GA aviators don't get to play in the coffin corner, Dudley. I
can't get the Mooney to those altitudes and speeds (dammit!).

On Aug 10, 9:11*am, a wrote:
On Aug 9, 3:15*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:



On Aug 9, 1:47*pm, RST Engineering wrote:

On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons

lurking near the edges of the envelope.

Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. *Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. *That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

Actually, if the truth be known, not that exceeding the right side
won't get you killed, it's the LEFT side of the envelope that gets
most pilots in trouble. :-))
Dudley Henriques

We SEL GA aviators don't get to play in the coffin corner, Dudley. I
can't get the Mooney to those altitudes and speeds (dammit!).

Hi a;

I'm assuming you are referring to the classic definition of the
"coffin corner" found at altitude. Although upset departure can indeed
be an issue for operation in the coffin corner this isn't what I'm
talking about when I say the left side of the envelope.
Just as an aside; there is another coffin corner seldom discussed
outside the high performance community. It's defined as the area on
the back side of the power curve where you cross the line where adding
power will no longer maintain altitude or rate of sink and ONLY angle
of attack reduction will accomplish that.
Back to current comment :-)
On a simple v/g diagram for ANY aircraft, the lift line that defines
aoa crit runs defines a g slope that runs from 0 on up to the Va
corner at the limit load factor limit on a GA airplane ( the corner
velocity for a fighter). This line defines the stall speeds above 1g
(acellerated stall) which increase as the square of the load factor.
It's violating this lift line on the left side of the envelope where a
vast majority of GA accidents occur.
Good CFI's will naturally cover teaching a student how to avoid the
Vne area on the right side and the limit load factor on the top, but
GOOD flight instructors will spend a LOT of time teaching their
students the dangers that live along that left side lift line.
Vne is a solid limit. So is the limit load factor, but the limits
along that left side lift line are variable and it's a wise pilot who
spends a whole lot of time learning how that long sloping lift line
equates to their exact aircraft, be it an airliner, a jet fighter, or
a J3 Cub :-)
Hope this helps a bit.
Dudley

On Aug 10, 9:55*am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
On Aug 10, 9:11*am, a wrote:



On Aug 9, 3:15*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:

On Aug 9, 1:47*pm, RST Engineering wrote:

On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons

lurking near the edges of the envelope.

Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. *Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. *That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

Actually, if the truth be known, not that exceeding the right side
won't get you killed, it's the LEFT side of the envelope that gets
most pilots in trouble. :-))
Dudley Henriques

We SEL GA aviators don't get to play in the coffin corner, Dudley. I
can't get the Mooney to those altitudes and speeds (dammit!).

Hi a;

I'm assuming you are referring to the classic definition of the
"coffin corner" found at altitude. Although upset departure can indeed
be an issue for operation in the coffin corner this isn't what I'm
talking about when I say the left side of the envelope.
Just as an aside; there is another coffin corner seldom discussed
outside the high performance community. It's defined as the area on
the back side of the power curve where you cross the line where adding
power will no longer maintain altitude or rate of sink and ONLY angle
of attack reduction will accomplish that.
Back to current comment :-)
On a simple v/g diagram for ANY aircraft, the lift line that defines
aoa crit runs defines a g slope that runs from 0 on up to the Va
corner at the limit load factor limit on a GA airplane ( the corner
velocity for a fighter). This line defines the stall speeds above 1g
(acellerated stall) which increase as the square of the load factor.
It's violating this lift line on the left side of the envelope where a
vast majority of GA accidents occur.
Good CFI's will naturally cover teaching a student how to avoid the
Vne area on the right side and the limit load factor on the top, but
GOOD flight instructors will spend a LOT of time teaching their
students the dangers that live along that left side lift line.
Vne is a solid limit. So is the limit load factor, but the limits
along that left side lift line are variable and it's a wise pilot who
spends a whole lot of time learning how that long sloping lift line
equates to their exact aircraft, be it an airliner, a jet fighter, or
a J3 Cub :-)
Hope this helps a bit.
Dudley

The only times I get close to the edges of the Mooney's envelope is
when landing and doing proficiency stuff. Other times my excursions in
the envelope are pretty much postage stamp sized, stuck dead center of
the envelope. Mooneys are 'get from here to there' airplanes, and I'd
rather not wrinkle my suit, or those of my pax, when doing that.

I wanna Pitts!

On Aug 11, 1:11*am, a wrote:
On Aug 9, 3:15*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:





On Aug 9, 1:47*pm, RST Engineering wrote:

On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons

lurking near the edges of the envelope.

Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. *Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. *That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

Actually, if the truth be known, not that exceeding the right side
won't get you killed, it's the LEFT side of the envelope that gets
most pilots in trouble. :-))
Dudley Henriques

We SEL GA aviators don't get to play in the coffin corner, Dudley. I
can't get the Mooney to those altitudes and speeds (dammit!).

Strap on a JATO =:-O

Cheers

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
On Aug 9, 1:47 pm, RST Engineering wrote:
On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons

lurking near the edges of the envelope.

Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

Actually, if the truth be known, not that exceeding the right side
won't get you killed, it's the LEFT side of the envelope that gets
most pilots in trouble. :-))
Dudley Henriques

--------------------

Or, to put it in a grossly understated way, the part of the envelope where
you would write "Attn: Whomever" is likely to get your attention!

Peter