2-33

On Sep 15, 8:22*pm, Peter Smith wrote:

We typically have 30-40 juniors.

Peter - that's fantastic. How do you attract and keep that many?

On Sep 15, 6:50*pm, Terry Mc Elligott wrote:
On Sep 15, 8:22*pm, Peter Smith wrote:



We typically have 30-40 juniors.

Peter - that's fantastic. How do you attract and keep that many?

how many show up on a typical weekend day?

Brad

On Sep 15, 7:50*pm, Terry Mc Elligott wrote:
On Sep 15, 8:22*pm, Peter Smith wrote:



We typically have 30-40 juniors.

Peter - that's fantastic. How do you attract and keep that many?

Harris Hill Juniors do much to run the place. I will add that six of
the ten are 501c(3) charitable chapters, which helps but is not
necessary. SCOH has some CAP involvement. TSA has a learn while you
earn scholarship.

Your SSA Top Ten Youth Chapters as of 9/1/2010

Name Total Youth
Caesar Creek Soaring Club 249 43
Finger Lakes Soaring Club Inc. 51 10
Greater Boston Soaring Club 123 17
Greater Houston Soaring Assoc 113 17
Harris Hill Soaring Corp. 144 33
Mid-Atlantic Soaring Assoc. 118 10
Sky Soaring, Inc. 108 15
Soaring Club of Houston 199 29
Texas Soaring Association 196 16
Valley Soaring Club, Inc. 99 24

SSA had 435 youth members at the beginning of the month. Nearly 10%
are in one chapter.

Frank Whiteley

Your SSA Top Ten Youth Chapters as of 9/1/2010

Name Total Youth
Caesar Creek Soaring Club 249 43
Finger Lakes Soaring Club Inc. 51 10
Greater Boston Soaring Club 123 17
Greater Houston Soaring Assoc 113 17
Harris Hill Soaring Corp. 144 33
Mid-Atlantic Soaring Assoc. 118 10
Sky Soaring, Inc. 108 15
Soaring Club of Houston 199 29
Texas Soaring Association 196 16
Valley Soaring Club, Inc. 99 24

SSA had 435 youth members at the beginning of the month. Nearly 10%
are in one chapter.

Frank Whiteley

What's the common factor with all these operations? I think it is
probably:

1) Consistent, regular flight operations. Regimented flight operations
set up with committed crews for each flying day is the way to go (if you
have the people). That model may not be directly applicable to small
clubs, but consistently scheduled flying and training operations are
crucial in my opinion. Most of our small clubs have erratic and
sporadic flying schedules that depend on one overworked flight
instructor and one or two tug drivers, all of whom also have families
and day jobs. That will soon drive off any but the most determined
trainees (and it ain't all that attractive to flight instructors and tow
pilots, either).

2) Good facilities. Facilities are really important for the non-flying
family members. Roasting in the summer, freezing in the winter, and not
even a clean place to go potty will soon drive off mom and dad, taking
Buffy and Bif, our promising young trainees, with them.


Man, do I miss Caesar Creek...

On Sep 16, 10:39*am, Berry wrote:
Your SSA Top Ten Youth Chapters as of 9/1/2010

Name * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Total * Youth
Caesar Creek Soaring Club *249 * * 43
Finger Lakes Soaring Club Inc. * * 51 * * *10
Greater Boston Soaring Club * * * *123 * * 17
Greater Houston Soaring Assoc * * *113 * * 17
Harris Hill Soaring Corp. *144 * * 33
Mid-Atlantic Soaring Assoc. * * * *118 * * 10
Sky Soaring, Inc. *108 * * 15
Soaring Club of Houston * *199 * * 29
Texas Soaring Association *196 * * 16
Valley Soaring Club, Inc. *99 * * *24

SSA had 435 youth members at the beginning of the month. *Nearly 10%
are in one chapter.

Frank Whiteley

What's the common factor with all these operations? I think it is
probably:

1) Consistent, regular flight operations. Regimented flight operations
set up with committed crews for each flying day is the way to go (if you
have the people). That model may not be directly applicable to small
clubs, but consistently scheduled flying and training operations are
crucial in my opinion. Most of our small clubs have erratic and *
sporadic flying schedules that depend on one overworked flight
instructor and one or two tug drivers, all of whom also have families
and day jobs. That will soon drive off any but the most determined
trainees (and it ain't all that attractive to flight instructors and tow
pilots, either).

2) Good facilities. Facilities are really important for the non-flying
family members. Roasting in the summer, freezing in the winter, and not
even a clean place to go potty will soon drive off mom and dad, taking
Buffy and Bif, our promising young trainees, with them.

Man, do I miss Caesar Creek...

We're opening up the usual oil drum of worms again...

The 1 or 2 instructor paradigm is all too common. A club will latch
onto an instructor, put him in the back of the plane every weekend for
about a year or two, and then he will run screaming from the sport.
Lather, rinse, repeat.

Our club at various times has experimented with different ship mixes.
About 10 years ago it was an L-13 for primary training, G103 for
advanced training, and a 1-26 for solo work. The 1-26 never flew,
so we traded up to an L33. Usage of that took off, but the usage
of the G103 gradually declined. Finally we sold it and used the
money to pay off all our debts. Meanwhile, one club member put
an HpH 304C on leaseback, which gave us another stepping stone
past the L33. We lucked into a G103 just recently so we'll have
something to instruct in until the L13 can return to flight.

On the instructor front, one of our two instructors decided to avoid
the "screaming from the sport" path and recruited a larger number
of instructors. We currently have 5, which allows us to instruct
every Saturday and two Sundays a month with a given instructor
only needing to work an average of 1.2 days a month. Retention
is much better, needless to say.

As far as youth programs go, I belonged to Harris Hill in the past.
Critical mass was a large factor, and commitment by the adults
in the club, too. The adults would go out of their way to vote
higher dues so the juniors wouldn't have to. We've tried set up
a junior program at my current club a couple of times but we've
never gotten it to work yet. Two kids that show up on alternate
Saturdays don't make for a critical mass.

-- Matt

On Sep 16, 10:39*am, Berry wrote:
Your SSA Top Ten Youth Chapters as of 9/1/2010

Name * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Total * Youth
Caesar Creek Soaring Club *249 * * 43
Finger Lakes Soaring Club Inc. * * 51 * * *10
Greater Boston Soaring Club * * * *123 * * 17
Greater Houston Soaring Assoc * * *113 * * 17
Harris Hill Soaring Corp. *144 * * 33
Mid-Atlantic Soaring Assoc. * * * *118 * * 10
Sky Soaring, Inc. *108 * * 15
Soaring Club of Houston * *199 * * 29
Texas Soaring Association *196 * * 16
Valley Soaring Club, Inc. *99 * * *24

SSA had 435 youth members at the beginning of the month. *Nearly 10%
are in one chapter.

Frank Whiteley

What's the common factor with all these operations? I think it is
probably:

1) Consistent, regular flight operations. Regimented flight operations
set up with committed crews for each flying day is the way to go (if you
have the people). That model may not be directly applicable to small
clubs, but consistently scheduled flying and training operations are
crucial in my opinion. Most of our small clubs have erratic and *
sporadic flying schedules that depend on one overworked flight
instructor and one or two tug drivers, all of whom also have families
and day jobs. That will soon drive off any but the most determined
trainees (and it ain't all that attractive to flight instructors and tow
pilots, either).

2) Good facilities. Facilities are really important for the non-flying
family members. Roasting in the summer, freezing in the winter, and not
even a clean place to go potty will soon drive off mom and dad, taking
Buffy and Bif, our promising young trainees, with them.

Man, do I miss Caesar Creek...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From my experience as commercial operator and then club leader at VSC:
1) It is more important to have enough equipment than the fanciest
equipment. A couple 2-33's(or Blaniks or K13's) making training
possible without stopping member solo or fun flying is far better than
one K-21 that you have to wait around all day to fly.
2) A realistic progression path is important. One negative of "better"
trainers like '21 is that you then must have similar performance
gliders to progress to. A person of modest means that would like to
maybe move to ownership is highly unlikely to want a 1-26 or something
he can afford.
Barrier to progress- drop out.
3) Family friendly. Shade- welcoming environment. Comfort facilities
reasonably at hand.
4) Reliable core staff. Folks want to know they will be able to fly
and not wonder if there will be a tug pilot or instructor today.
5) Social events- Organize a grill picnic once a month after flying.
6) Kids are a wonderful thing. They keep us energized and are a big
help with operation. That said, the number one way to attract and keep
young people is to have bunch of them around. Nobody wants to be the
only (girl, minority, young person,etc.) at the airport. We take extra
care to provide a comfortable environment and social network for our
kids. Pairing them up with another junior knocks down a lot of
barriers. It does not hurt at all to have a few good looking girls in
the group. Guys flock in and other girls feel more comfortable.
7) Cost is important if you want to attract beyond the affluent empty
nest crowd.
8) Do anything you can to make folks want to be part of the group.
There is a huge importance to the social side of things.
9) A good web site really helps to attract folks. SSA's where to fly
site is a great resource.
10) Continuing mentorship of members even after they get a license.
Keep the personal growth going.
It is also worth noting that there are a number of solutions that work
and to not dismiss them just because it doesn't fit your idea of how
things should be.
One guy may think one modern glass ship and a tow car is all that is
needed. Possibly true for his "business" model.
Others will see it differently. It depends on the group you start
with, what facility you have, financial reources available, and what
your objectives are.
That said, a couple guys with a 2-33 and a tow car on some big farm
someplace could have a bunch of fun.
Constructively
UH

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 09:39:35 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:


From my experience as commercial operator and then club leader at VSC:


Hello Hank,

what are the fees at your club?


Regards
Andreas

I learned to fly in a 2-33 years ago at a commercial operation. There
were a few L-13's on the field as well, but for some reason the 2-33
and I seemed to do well together. I viewed the Schweitzer as a means
to an end, and that was to get my ticket and move on to something
better. At Issaquah Soaring that meant a 1-26. I must have been very
naive by todays standards: I didn't know that the 2-33 was an ugly
piece of **** and if I was smart I would have demanded the L-13 or
simply given up my dream of soaring..............as to the 1-26 the
day I got checked out to fly it made me think I had finally "arrived"
and could now play with the "big boys" Of course the big boys flew
ASW-15's, ASW-20's and an RS-15 that I thought looked like a
rocketship.

I couldn't wait to help these guys rig their ships, as a guy in his
late teens/early twenties the thought of helping these guys rig their
unbelievably cool gliders was a source of endless enthusiasm and
inspiration.

Fast forward to now: At our field it's very rare for any student or
low time pilot to come over and help any of the private guys rig. In
fact I'm led to believe that they have been told that we are a bunch
of low level XC flying lunatics and should be avoided! The students
tend to huddle together and talk amongst themselves or feverishly text
their buddies. I don't recall any of them asking us seasoned pilots
about local conditions, what the weather might do today, where the
best routes for XC might be........I find it all very strange. True,
they are students, but someday students are supposed to become pilots
and soaring pilots are want to go XC, I think.......

Our club would also do well to start making the instructor corp pay
monthly dues, and to make students pay the full membership fees and
dues. We probably see a shortfall of over $5000 a year due to our
current policies. From what I've seen some of our instructors seem to
think they and their students have priority on the field. More than
once while waiting for the towplane I've seen a Blanik get pulled in
front of a waiting private ship, with the excuse that students have
priority.

Maybe students are the future of soaring, well...............yes, some
are...........out of the many that start I bet only a handful will
move forward and experience the full joy of what soaring has to offer.
I don't believe it is our business to push people towards this,
something like soaring pulls people...............those that don't fly
a lot in my opinion are dangerous and should leave the
sport.................perhaps to text their buddies and tell them how
rad it was to fly in a glider.

Brad

I think you're seeing one of the primary reasons that soaring is in
decline and that people want to blame 2-33s. Times and people have
changed. Instant gratification, me first, and a sense of entitlement
are all pretty common in modern society. What often hasn't changed is
the approach that clubs take to attracting and addressing the changing
demographic.

I've seen it professed that the downfall of soaring is in fact due to
high performance glass ships and the fact that they result in people
being gone all day and that there is no challenge or camaraderie like
in the good ole days when people landed out in their 1-26 near the
airport every weekend. I'm sure there is some semblance of truth in
that, but only when taken into context of how society has changed and
that pilots of the 70's or 80's had a different set of pressures and
norms to work against.

Ultimately it is the people involved and how they welcome new faces
into soaring that probably makes the biggest difference. I appreciate
the constructive tack that this conversation is taking. As the
president of a small and struggling club, I can use all of the help
and ideas I can get in trying to motivate existing members to come out
and fly and to get new people involved.

For what it is worth, despite the feeling that not having a sexy ship
in our fleet was hurting our long term retention, I drove the
acquisition of a second 2-33 as a priority over something higher
performance. If you want good activity in a club, you need to make
sure that students that go solo have something to fly and that it
doesn't interrupt training as well.

Morgan


On Sep 16, 10:29*am, Brad wrote:
I learned to fly in a 2-33 years ago at a commercial operation. There
were a few L-13's on the field as well, but for some reason the 2-33
and I seemed to do well together. I viewed the Schweitzer as a means
to an end, and that was to get my ticket and move on to something
better. At Issaquah Soaring that meant a 1-26. I must have been very
naive by todays standards: I didn't know that the 2-33 was an ugly
piece of **** and if I was smart I would have demanded the L-13 or
simply given up my dream of soaring..............as to the 1-26 the
day I got checked out to fly it made me think I had finally "arrived"
and could now play with the "big boys" Of course the big boys flew
ASW-15's, ASW-20's and an RS-15 that I thought looked like a
rocketship.

I couldn't wait to help these guys rig their ships, as a guy in his
late teens/early twenties the thought of helping these guys rig their
unbelievably cool gliders was a source of endless enthusiasm and
inspiration.

Fast forward to now: At our field it's very rare for any student or
low time pilot to come over and help any of the private guys rig. In
fact I'm led to believe that they have been told that we are a bunch
of low level XC flying lunatics and should be avoided! The students
tend to huddle together and talk amongst themselves or feverishly text
their buddies. I don't recall any of them asking us seasoned pilots
about local conditions, what the weather might do today, where the
best routes for XC might be........I find it all very strange. True,
they are students, but someday students are supposed to become pilots
and soaring pilots are want to go XC, I think.......

Our club would also do well to start making the instructor corp pay
monthly dues, and to make students pay the full membership fees and
dues. We probably see a shortfall of over $5000 a year due to our
current policies. From what I've seen some of our instructors seem to
think they and their students have priority on the field. More than
once while waiting for the towplane I've seen a Blanik get pulled in
front of a waiting private ship, with the excuse that students have
priority.

Maybe students are the future of soaring, well...............yes, some
are...........out of the many that start I bet only a handful will
move forward and experience the full joy of what soaring has to offer.
I don't believe it is our business to push people towards this,
something like soaring pulls people...............those that don't fly
a lot in my opinion are dangerous and should leave the
sport.................perhaps to text their buddies and tell them how
rad it was to fly in a glider.

Brad

On Sep 16, 12:57*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 09:39:35 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

From my experience as commercial operator and then club leader at VSC:

Hello Hank,

what are the fees at your club?

Regards
Andreas

Initiation is $300
Dues $35/month
2000' tow is $25 and $13 for Jrs
2-33 is @26/hr and $13 for Jr's
1-26 is $20/hr and N/C for Jrs
1-34 $28/hr and $14 for Jrs
K21 is $40/ hr for all- that will drop in 5 yrs time when it is paid
for.
General approach is Jr's pay variable costs and fixed costs are
covered by regular members.
Jrs are about 25% of membership and about 35% of activity
FWIW