Jim Pennino or...Jim Pinheado?

On Sep 16, 11:24*am, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 15, 8:04*pm, wrote:

You said you were going to buy a LSA, not build one, which means the
airworthiness certificate would be invalid.

There are numerous LSA's which you can buy near completion,
then finish them, becoming the builder on record, and still meet
the 50-50 rule.

It is called the 51% rule, not the 50-50 rule.

Technicality.

Last I looked there are no kit LSA's which meet the 51% rule for the
simple reason that the 51% rule does not apply to kit built LSA's.

Yes, I have personal knowledge of this.

Actually what came to mind is the scenerio where companies like
Arion and some other's have Builder Assist. I have encountered
unfinished projects for sale.

The RV-12 may, but it isn't available yet so that is unknown.

And to be the builder and meet the 51% rule, you have to do 51% of the
work, not buy something 98% complete and just do the last 2%.

That isn't what Nick Otterback, Arion's product development manager
told me when I asked him in person. The final authority would be the
FAA, but thus far I have been told different.

If you build one and invalidate it as a LSA, now you have to go to the
FAA and somehow get the thing cerificated as an exprimental after the
fact. *Good luck on that.

What's an exprimental? *New category?

Experimental is what most people call the airplanes that the FAA calls
amateur built which get as label saying "experimental" on them.

Grin, I was just messing with you. Your spelling and grammar
are consistently off, i.e., you'd properly say "an" LSA, not "a" LSA.
I probably know every experimental plane there is. You wrote...
"exprimental", and "cerificated". That's baby gibberish.

If you actually knew anything about aviation you would know that.

I could easily say, "if you weren't a pin-head my spelling correction
wouldn't have escaped you", but you've been respectful lately and
deserve the same. A little humor is like a little salt. Adds flavor.

Jim logajan posts:
2) Also, for the record, the FAA speed requirement for LSA has some
important qualifiers that allow LSA airplanes to legally travel faster
than
120 kts.

No one but you ever said anything about them not being able to.

No. You said it wasn't allowed.

No, I said you are not allowed to modify the airplane in such a way that
the max cruise speed at sea level is greater than 120 kts.

While that is correct, you're official position now has been modified
to be so. No matter. Let's move on.

Actually, you are not allowed to modify anything on a LSA.

The manufacturer will dictate that. (remember..."an" LSA).
A further examination of allowances is worthwhile. Many flight
schools that only offer PP certification are approaching
illiteracy on this subject.

---

Mark

--
Jim Pennino

Mark wrote:
On Sep 16, 11:24Â*am, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 15, 8:04Â*pm, wrote:

You said you were going to buy a LSA, not build one, which means the
airworthiness certificate would be invalid.

There are numerous LSA's which you can buy near completion,
then finish them, becoming the builder on record, and still meet
the 50-50 rule.

It is called the 51% rule, not the 50-50 rule.

Technicality.

Last I looked there are no kit LSA's which meet the 51% rule for the
simple reason that the 51% rule does not apply to kit built LSA's.

Yes, I have personal knowledge of this.

Actually what came to mind is the scenerio where companies like
Arion and some other's have Builder Assist. I have encountered
unfinished projects for sale.

There are lots of finished and unfinished kits available.

You can buy one someone else built.

The point is to get the benefits, such as qualify for the repairman
certificate, you have to have done the majority of the work yourself.


The RV-12 may, but it isn't available yet so that is unknown.

And to be the builder and meet the 51% rule, you have to do 51% of the
work, not buy something 98% complete and just do the last 2%.

That isn't what Nick Otterback, Arion's product development manager
told me when I asked him in person. The final authority would be the
FAA, but thus far I have been told different.

The FAA says you need to sign and notarize FAA Form 8130-12 attesting to
the fact that you have completed at least 51% of the operations required.

If you build one and invalidate it as a LSA, now you have to go to the
FAA and somehow get the thing cerificated as an exprimental after the
fact. Â*Good luck on that.

What's an exprimental? Â*New category?

Experimental is what most people call the airplanes that the FAA calls
amateur built which get as label saying "experimental" on them.

Grin, I was just messing with you. Your spelling and grammar
are consistently off, i.e., you'd properly say "an" LSA, not "a" LSA.
I probably know every experimental plane there is. You wrote...
"exprimental", and "cerificated". That's baby gibberish.

You are flattering yourself if you think I would bother to waste the time
on spell checking in my response to your posts.

Actually, you are not allowed to modify anything on a LSA.

The manufacturer will dictate that. (remember..."an" LSA).
A further examination of allowances is worthwhile. Many flight
schools that only offer PP certification are approaching
illiteracy on this subject.

YOU can not modify a LSA.

The manufacturer of a LSA may make a change in the design and make that
change either optional or mandatory for existing aircraft.

How do you know when to use the indefinite articles?

"A" goes before all words that begin with consonants.

* a cat
* a dog
* a purple onion
* a buffalo
* a big apple

With one exception: Use "an" before unsounded h.

* an honorable peace
* an honest error

"An" goes before all words that begin with vowels:

* an apricot
* an egg
* an Indian
* an orbit
* an uprising

With two exceptions: When u makes the same sound as the y in you, or o makes the same sound as w in won, then a is used.

* a union
* a united front
* a unicorn
* a used napkin
* a U.S. ship
* a one-legged man

The phonetic quality of the letter "L" makes the use of a versus an debatable.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 17:21:41 -0000, wrote:

Experimental is what most people call the airplanes that the FAA calls
amateur built which get as label saying "experimental" on them.

Grin, I was just messing with you. Your spelling and grammar
are consistently off, i.e., you'd properly say "an" LSA, not "a" LSA.
I probably know every experimental plane there is. You wrote...
"exprimental", and "cerificated". That's baby gibberish.

You are flattering yourself if you think I would bother to waste the time
on spell checking in my response to your posts.

*rofl*
--
A fireside chat not with Ari!
http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!

On Sep 16, 1:21*pm, wrote:

Actually what came to mind is the scenerio where companies like
Arion and some other's have Builder Assist. I have encountered
unfinished projects for sale.

There are lots of finished and unfinished kits available.

You can buy one someone else built.

The point is to get the benefits, such as qualify for the repairman
certificate, you have to have done the majority of the work yourself.

WRONG (again). There can be multiple people involved, as I stated,
such as the person whom you bought it from.

"What if you bought the project from a previous owner who never
finished it?
It does not matter how many previous owners a project may have had -
as long as each owner intended to build the aircraft for their own
education or recreation - if you can document or show documentation of
the work that each did, it is as if YOU did the work!"

http://www.aircraftersllc.com/51percent.htm

---
Mark

Mark wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:21Â*pm, wrote:

Actually what came to mind is the scenerio where companies like
Arion and some other's have Builder Assist. I have encountered
unfinished projects for sale.

There are lots of finished and unfinished kits available.

You can buy one someone else built.

The point is to get the benefits, such as qualify for the repairman
certificate, you have to have done the majority of the work yourself.

WRONG (again). There can be multiple people involved, as I stated,
such as the person whom you bought it from.

"What if you bought the project from a previous owner who never
finished it?
It does not matter how many previous owners a project may have had -
as long as each owner intended to build the aircraft for their own
education or recreation - if you can document or show documentation of
the work that each did, it is as if YOU did the work!"

http://www.aircraftersllc.com/51percent.htm

Correct as far as registration goes, but to get the repairman certificate,
you have to show you were the primary builder and you know enough to keep
the thing airworthy.

That gets you the repairman certificate, which authorizes you to do the
annual condition inspections yourself.

None of this has anything to do with LSA's.

None of this changes the fact that if you, as you said you planned to do,
swap props for more performance on an aircraft flown under LSA rules:

If the aircraft is a LSA, you invalidate the airworthiness certificate, and
the airplane is now little more than scrap.

If the aircraft is certified, it can never again be flown as a LSA.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Sep 16, 10:06*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:21*pm, wrote:

Actually what came to mind is the scenerio where companies like
Arion and some other's have Builder Assist. I have encountered
unfinished projects for sale.

There are lots of finished and unfinished kits available.

You can buy one someone else built.

The point is to get the benefits, such as qualify for the repairman
certificate, you have to have done the majority of the work yourself.

WRONG (again). There can be multiple people involved, as I stated,
such as the person whom you bought it from.

"What if you bought the project from a previous owner who never
finished it?
It does not matter how many previous owners a project may have had -
as long as each owner intended to build the aircraft for their own
education or recreation - if you can document or show documentation of
the work that each did, it is as if YOU did the work!"

http://www.aircraftersllc.com/51percent.htm

Correct as far as registration goes, but to get the repairman certificate,
you have to show you were the primary builder and you know enough to keep
the thing airworthy.

That gets you the repairman certificate, which authorizes you to do the
annual condition inspections yourself.

None of this has anything to do with LSA's.

Irrelevant. Many of the models I'm looking at are
all of the following...LSA and ELSA and yes even SLSA all
in the same final product. The distinction is the process
by which it came to completion.

None of this changes the fact that if you, as you said you planned to do,
swap props for more performance on an aircraft flown under LSA rules:

Wrong. LSA rules don't apply in Costa Rica.

If the aircraft is a LSA, you invalidate the airworthiness certificate, and
the airplane is now little more than scrap.

Wrong. The manufacturers have props which allow the
plane to go 170 or 180 mph. The airworthiness certificate
remains intact. Now you no longer have a light sport plane.
It can be sold anywhere to private pilots, or flown outside
of the United States.

If the aircraft is certified, it can never again be flown as a LSA.

Well sure. Same is true if you do what a lot of people
do, which is...put in a backseat. Or take off the winglets.
Or add unauthorized wheelpants. Etc, etc. Only a fool
would throw off the CG though.

---
Mark

--
Jim Pennino

On Sep 16, 10:45*pm, Mark wrote:

Irrelevant. *Many of the models I'm looking at are
all of the following...LSA and ELSA and yes even SLSA all
in the same final product. The distinction is the process
by which it came to completion.

Clarification: the above statement is ambiguous.

Let's take the Arion Lightning. They received certification
now to produce an SLSA lightning. That is complete off
the showroom floor. (actually, you preorder)

Or, you can use builder-assist, and produce the same
product. Now you've got an ELSA lightning.

But they're *both* an Arion Lightning LSA.

Or...you can put on wheel pants, omitt the winglets,
add high performance prop, and now you've got an
Arion lightning airplane, but not LSA.

This scenerio is underway at many LSA plants
across the world today.

---
Mark

Mark wrote:
On Sep 16, 10:45Â*pm, Mark wrote:

Irrelevant. Â*Many of the models I'm looking at are
all of the following...LSA and ELSA and yes even SLSA all
in the same final product. The distinction is the process
by which it came to completion.

Clarification: the above statement is ambiguous.

Let's take the Arion Lightning. They received certification
now to produce an SLSA lightning. That is complete off
the showroom floor. (actually, you preorder)

Or, you can use builder-assist, and produce the same
product. Now you've got an ELSA lightning.

But they're *both* an Arion Lightning LSA.

Or...you can put on wheel pants, omitt the winglets,
add high performance prop, and now you've got an
Arion lightning airplane, but not LSA.

This scenerio is underway at many LSA plants
across the world today.

And it is still apples and oranges to the discussion.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Mark wrote:
On Sep 16, 10:06Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:21Â*pm, wrote:

Actually what came to mind is the scenerio where companies like
Arion and some other's have Builder Assist. I have encountered
unfinished projects for sale.

There are lots of finished and unfinished kits available.

You can buy one someone else built.

The point is to get the benefits, such as qualify for the repairman
certificate, you have to have done the majority of the work yourself.

WRONG (again). There can be multiple people involved, as I stated,
such as the person whom you bought it from.

"What if you bought the project from a previous owner who never
finished it?
It does not matter how many previous owners a project may have had -
as long as each owner intended to build the aircraft for their own
education or recreation - if you can document or show documentation of
the work that each did, it is as if YOU did the work!"

http://www.aircraftersllc.com/51percent.htm

Correct as far as registration goes, but to get the repairman certificate,
you have to show you were the primary builder and you know enough to keep
the thing airworthy.

That gets you the repairman certificate, which authorizes you to do the
annual condition inspections yourself.

None of this has anything to do with LSA's.

Irrelevant. Many of the models I'm looking at are
all of the following...LSA and ELSA and yes even SLSA all
in the same final product. The distinction is the process
by which it came to completion.

Gibberish.

A LSA is a LSA based on a set of specifications for the airplane by the
maker, be it a kit or fully built.

None of this changes the fact that if you, as you said you planned to do,
swap props for more performance on an aircraft flown under LSA rules:

Wrong. LSA rules don't apply in Costa Rica.

LSA doesn't exist outside the USA, so your response is gibberish.

If the aircraft is a LSA, you invalidate the airworthiness certificate, and
the airplane is now little more than scrap.

Wrong. The manufacturers have props which allow the
plane to go 170 or 180 mph. The airworthiness certificate
remains intact. Now you no longer have a light sport plane.
It can be sold anywhere to private pilots, or flown outside
of the United States.

Nope, the airworthiness certificate for a LSA is based on how it was
manufactured.

Swapping props to some configuration recognized somewhere, but not as a
LSA, puts the airplane in legal limbo.

If the aircraft is certified, it can never again be flown as a LSA.

Well sure. Same is true if you do what a lot of people
do, which is...put in a backseat. Or take off the winglets.
Or add unauthorized wheelpants. Etc, etc. Only a fool
would throw off the CG though.

Nope, that is apples and oranges.

You can make any modification you want to a cerified aircraft flown under
LSA rules as long as the modification doesn't change the specifications to
be outside the LSA limits.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:45:42 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:

Wrong. LSA rules don't apply in Costa Rica.

*ROTFLMAO*
--
A fireside chat not with Ari!
http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!