New ASK-21prices

On Oct 23, 12:53*am, RRK wrote:
On Oct 21, 11:57*pm, bildan wrote:



I've flown both and while the PW-6 is a very nice glider, it's not in
the same league as the ASK-21.

"bildan"
* * * * * * * would you elaborate a little bit more on your's opinion.
You stated that *PW-6 is in the different league than K-21. Why?
Since you flown both of them, *I'm sure it will be easy to justified
you conclusion.
Could you share it with us ? Please.
RRK

It's just my humble opinion. To me the ASK-21 feels more solid, more
rugged. The ASK-21's larger wing seems to hold on to weak lift better
and the controls are better harmonized. The 21's cockpit is bigger.
I love the docile stall behavior.

Thanks to all the replies - both online and direct. Now comes the
hard part - convincing the old guard that it's time to retire the 2-33
and move on.

As far as the suggestion to get a motorglider - not interested. It
may be the perfect plane for some people & clubs, but not for ours.

I've considered the PW-6 and looked at one (did not get to fly it,
unfortunately) and it's an interesting little glider - second on my
list. I confess to a lot of time in K-21s, including giving
commercial acro rides, and really like the way it flies. And it's a
tough ship - far stronger than the Grob 103, IMO.

Again, thanks for the feedback; hopefully at some time in the future
I'll be able to report the purchase of a new glider...

Kirk
66

On Oct 23, 10:54*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Thanks to all the replies - both online and direct. *Now comes the
hard part - convincing the old guard that it's time to retire the 2-33
and move on.

As far as the suggestion to get a motorglider - not interested. *It
may be the perfect plane for some people & clubs, but not for ours.

I've considered the PW-6 and looked at one (did not get to fly it,
unfortunately) and it's an interesting little glider - second on my
list. *I confess to a lot of time in K-21s, including giving
commercial acro rides, and really like the way it flies. *And it's a
tough ship - far stronger than the Grob 103, IMO.

Again, thanks for the feedback; hopefully at some time in the future
I'll be able to report the purchase of a new glider...

Kirk
66

Last point. Often on ras people say that the 21 is a bad trainer
because it can't stall or spin properly. The answer is, get the spin
weights. I took ours out last weekend for spinning. (When giving a
BFR, do something fun for the instructor!) With the spin weights on,
it stalls and spins beautifully. With the spin weights off, the solo
student is much less likely to get in trouble. The spin weights hang
out in the breeze where you can't possibly fail to notice them.

John Cochrane

On Oct 23, 9:54*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Thanks to all the replies - both online and direct. *Now comes the
hard part - convincing the old guard that it's time to retire the 2-33
and move on.

It's really inevitable. Whether it's an onerous AD or just members
moving to clubs with better gliders, the 2-33's days are numbered.
The trick is not to be the guys holding the bag when the 2-33 is
grounded like the unfortunate L-13 owners. One ding or bit of
corrosion in an unobtanium wing strut grounds a 2-33 - probably
forever.

The smart folks are moving on.

But, but, but, you could have a bakers dozen 2-33s for the price of
one ASK-21. Someone had to say it first. Good luck getting a club
caught up to the present.

On Oct 23, 11:41*am, "
wrote:
But, but, but, you could have a bakers dozen 2-33s for the price of
one ASK-21. *Someone had to say it first. *Good luck getting a club
caught up to the present.

You could also probably build even more primary gliders for the same
money but what's the point.

Some clubs won't move on - they'll just die. I know of a couple of
L-13 clubs which may not survive the grounding of that glider. That's
a cautionary tale - don't get stuck with a grounded glider which has
minimal factory support.

I've been through this before. Back in the late 50's, most US clubs
were flying WW2 training gliders like LK's, TG-3's or Pratt Reads.
Why, clubs asked, should we abandon our $1000 gliders for then hugely
expensive Schweizers? That was a difficult sell particularly since
the WW2 trainers were actually much better gliders with a ~10 point L/
D advantage.

In the end, the old wooden gliders just couldn't be maintained. The
only alternative to the metal Schweizers were still more wooden
gliders like the Ka-7, Kranich's or Bergfalke's from Germany. Given a
US industrial base skilled in metal, Schweizer was the only game in
town.

Today, we have a wide choice of excellent trainers which are
relatively speaking, no more expensive than Schweizers were then.
Suck it up and write the check.

On Oct 23, 10:41*am, "
wrote:
But, but, but, you could have a bakers dozen 2-33s for the price of
one ASK-21. *Someone had to say it first. *Good luck getting a club
caught up to the present.

(Just because I can't pass up on a metaphor).

I'd rather have a nice BLT than a bakers dozen stale buns.

Darryl

On 10/23/2010 11:54 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
Thanks to all the replies - both online and direct. Now comes the
hard part - convincing the old guard that it's time to retire the 2-33
and move on.

As far as the suggestion to get a motorglider - not interested. It
may be the perfect plane for some people& clubs, but not for ours.

I've considered the PW-6 and looked at one (did not get to fly it,
unfortunately) and it's an interesting little glider - second on my
list. I confess to a lot of time in K-21s, including giving
commercial acro rides, and really like the way it flies. And it's a
tough ship - far stronger than the Grob 103, IMO.

Again, thanks for the feedback; hopefully at some time in the future
I'll be able to report the purchase of a new glider...

Kirk
66

The other thing I would consider is fleet commonality. Not only does
this simplify maintenance, but it is also a safety issue. The typical
club pilot only flies maybe 10-20 flights per season.

If you have a variety of different ships, and members fly them randomly,
a pilot will never be really current in the plane he/she is flying.
There's a big plus to always having all the controls and instruments in
the same location when you get into trouble.

--
Mike Schumann

A new ASK-21 will arrive in January 2011 at Marfa Gliders Soaring
Center in southwest Texas.

For sale after my K-21 arrives:
My Blanik L-23 with huge collection of spare parts (most new and
unused) including a complete set of new L-23 canopies (in frames),
wheels, tailwheels, brakes, shock struts and much more. 1846 hours as
of OCT 1, 2010. Come fly it / inspect it -- in my hangar at MRF
airport. I'll probably keep my big enclosed Blanik trailer, so I
might deliver the L-23 to a buyer, sometime in 2011. Private e-mail
inquiries only for more details.

On Oct 23, 10:33*am, bildan wrote:
On Oct 23, 12:53*am, RRK wrote:

On Oct 21, 11:57*pm, bildan wrote:

I've flown both and while the PW-6 is a very nice glider, it's not in
the same league as the ASK-21.

"bildan"
* * * * * * * would you elaborate a little bit more on your's opinion.
You stated that *PW-6 is in the different league than K-21. Why?
Since you flown both of them, *I'm sure it will be easy to justified
you conclusion.
Could you share it with us ? Please.
RRK

It's just my humble opinion. *To me the ASK-21 feels more solid, more
rugged. *The ASK-21's larger wing seems to hold on to weak lift better
and the controls are better harmonized. *The 21's cockpit is bigger.
I love the docile stall behavior.

Another factor is the rear cockpit. We (TSA) evaluated a PW-6 early
on (2003?). Most instructors disliked the rear cockpit. It very much
felt like an afterthought: cramped, poor forward visibility and
communication with the front-seater because of the tall instrument
panel. We now own three ASK-21's. They earn their keep.