FLARM.....for good, or evil??

Hi Gang
Surely flying in a thermal with a gaggle of other gliders is
suicidal period. And what use is a Flarm in those conditions? I have a
Phoenix on order and am anticipating putting a PowerFlarm in it. Why?
Because the PowerFlarm has a PCAS function in addition to the Flarm
function and the PowerFlarm costs only a little more than a Zaon PCAS.
I do think the mandatory use of Flarm is a good idea for comps
especially if one can inexpensively rent a Flarm. But outside of comps
with the flying I do having a transponder is by far the most important
piece of safety equipment I have on board. A PCAS is also worth
having. Having a Flarm? It is a useless device until the use of Flarm
by the gliding community reaches critical mass (usage). That is
unlikely to happen here in the US for several years at best. And then
what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.
Dave

I've had a Flarm fitted for 4 years and by far the majority of other
gliders do not have one fitted. However, slowly but surely people are
getting them fitted in the UK. As it can be an IGC recorder that adds to
it's usefulness. I decided to get one for flying in the Alps because
almost all gliders flying there are fitted with them.
As for a transponder and pcas being more use, well I think glider/glider
or glider/tug collisions are far more common than glider/powered ac, so
for me Flarm is more cost effective. Powerflarm sounds like the best of
both worlds.
As for flying in gaggles, it's safe as long as everyone is looking out
and not cutting each other up.


At 17:46 26 October 2010, kd6veb wrote:
Hi Gang
Surely flying in a thermal with a gaggle of other gliders is
suicidal period. And what use is a Flarm in those conditions? I have a
Phoenix on order and am anticipating putting a PowerFlarm in it. Why?
Because the PowerFlarm has a PCAS function in addition to the Flarm
function and the PowerFlarm costs only a little more than a Zaon PCAS.
I do think the mandatory use of Flarm is a good idea for comps
especially if one can inexpensively rent a Flarm. But outside of comps
with the flying I do having a transponder is by far the most important
piece of safety equipment I have on board. A PCAS is also worth
having. Having a Flarm? It is a useless device until the use of Flarm
by the gliding community reaches critical mass (usage). That is
unlikely to happen here in the US for several years at best. And then
what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.
Dave

On 10/26/2010 10:46 AM, kd6veb wrote:
It is a useless device until the use of Flarm
by the gliding community reaches critical mass (usage). That is
unlikely to happen here in the US for several years at best.

I don't know the situation where you fly, or what you mean by "critical
mass", but it sounds like at least 25% of the most active pilots in our
area (Washington state) have ordered, or have stated their intent to
order, a PowerFlarm. Once they are in use next year, and the other
pilots hear reports about how well it works, I'm sure it the percentage
will be much higher by the end of 2011. In any case, I think even a 25%
installation rate puts it in the "useful" category for my purposes.

I expect our regional to have greater than 75% equipage, in part because
many contest pilots will own a unit, and because others will be able to
borrow units from pilots like myself, who won't be flying in the contest.

The US as a whole may not get nearly as high because there are areas
with a low glider density, but I'd expect any busy area, like Minden
(think of running the Whites), will quickly exceed the 25% point next year.

I agree a transponder is a very useful device in many areas, and I've
had one for 8 years.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

"kd6veb" wrote in message
:

Hi Gang
Surely flying in a thermal with a gaggle of other gliders is
suicidal period.

Huh!? Are you serious? Or just trying to wind us up... ????


Larry

On Oct 26, 10:46*am, kd6veb wrote:
Hi Gang
* Surely flying in a thermal with a gaggle of other gliders is
suicidal period. And what use is a Flarm in those conditions? I have a
Phoenix on order and am anticipating putting a PowerFlarm in it. Why?
Because the PowerFlarm has a PCAS function in addition to the Flarm
function and the PowerFlarm costs only a little more than a Zaon PCAS.
I do think the mandatory use of Flarm is a good idea for comps
especially if one can inexpensively rent a Flarm. But outside of comps
with the flying I do having a transponder is by far the most important
piece of safety equipment I have on board. A PCAS is also worth
having. Having a Flarm? It is a useless device until the use of Flarm
by the gliding community reaches critical mass (usage). That is
unlikely to happen here in the US for several years at best. And then
what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.
Dave

Dave, are you no longer flying to the Whites? Cause otherwise I am
sure you'll agree that in the area you are flying, other than near
Reno, the biggest risk of mid air collision is with another glider
running the White Mountains. On a good day, there can be over 20
gliders dolphine flying at 100 knots (200 knots closing speed) in a
1000 feet altitude band and within half a mile lateral, in both
directions.

Ramy

On Oct 26, 5:37*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Oct 26, 10:46*am, kd6veb wrote:



Hi Gang
* Surely flying in a thermal with a gaggle of other gliders is
suicidal period. And what use is a Flarm in those conditions? I have a
Phoenix on order and am anticipating putting a PowerFlarm in it. Why?
Because the PowerFlarm has a PCAS function in addition to the Flarm
function and the PowerFlarm costs only a little more than a Zaon PCAS.
I do think the mandatory use of Flarm is a good idea for comps
especially if one can inexpensively rent a Flarm. But outside of comps
with the flying I do having a transponder is by far the most important
piece of safety equipment I have on board. A PCAS is also worth
having. Having a Flarm? It is a useless device until the use of Flarm
by the gliding community reaches critical mass (usage). That is
unlikely to happen here in the US for several years at best. And then
Ramy wrote:
Dave, are you no longer flying to the Whites? Cause otherwise I am
sure you'll agree that in the area you are flying, other than near
Reno, the biggest risk of mid air collision is with another glider
running the White Mountains. On a good day, there can be over 20
gliders dolphine flying at 100 knots (200 knots closing speed) in a
1000 feet altitude band and within half a mile lateral, in both
directions.


Ramy
I fly the Whites with the transponder on like almost all responsible
glider pilots do. I also have PCAS on so if there is another pilot
near me with a transponder on I know that. Flarm is technically better
but why would we from the Reno area buy one having a transponder and
PCAS? I think you are missing the point of this discussion. Another
device that will only respond to other glider pilots having a Flarm?
This will not make sense to a large number of pilots who also want
protection from GA. I have said this many times but for us the
transponder is the most important safety device with PCAS a useful add
on. Flarm is a distant ( let me repeat that - A DISTANT THIRD) - on
the safety list of devices. I am not saying it is useless but until
about 50% of the glider pilots in the region you fly use one its
affect is marginal at best. That said I am purchasing one as I don't
see much downside for me but if I really had to tbe serious about
expenditures it would be a distant third on my list of safety devices
- transponder (90%), PCAS (8%) and guess where Flarm would be.
Dave

PS1 How are we going to persuade our FOBs at Minden to make the major
modification to Flarm when the installation of PowerFlarm in their
existing gliders may be difficult to say the least. The conversion to
transponders has been difficult enough for them and for Minden
transponders are clearly superior to Flarm. Hitting a commercial jet
with 200 passengers is not an option!

PS2 I wish risk management was taught in schools in the US.



what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.
Dave

Dave, are you no longer flying to the Whites? Cause otherwise I am
sure you'll agree that in the area you are flying, other than near
Reno, the biggest risk of mid air collision is with another glider
running the White Mountains. On a good day, there can be over 20
gliders dolphine flying at 100 knots (200 knots closing speed) in a
1000 feet altitude band and within half a mile lateral, in both
directions.

Ramy

On Oct 26, 7:38*pm, kd6veb wrote:
On Oct 26, 5:37*pm, Ramy wrote:



On Oct 26, 10:46*am, kd6veb wrote:

Hi Gang
* Surely flying in a thermal with a gaggle of other gliders is
suicidal period. And what use is a Flarm in those conditions? I have a
Phoenix on order and am anticipating putting a PowerFlarm in it. Why?
Because the PowerFlarm has a PCAS function in addition to the Flarm
function and the PowerFlarm costs only a little more than a Zaon PCAS..
I do think the mandatory use of Flarm is a good idea for comps
especially if one can inexpensively rent a Flarm. But outside of comps
with the flying I do having a transponder is by far the most important
piece of safety equipment I have on board. A PCAS is also worth
having. Having a Flarm? It is a useless device until the use of Flarm
by the gliding community reaches critical mass (usage). That is
unlikely to happen here in the US for several years at best. And then
*Ramy wrote:

Dave, are you no longer flying to the Whites? Cause otherwise I am
sure you'll agree that in the area you are flying, other than near
Reno, the biggest risk of mid air collision is with another glider
running the White Mountains. On a good day, there can be over 20
gliders dolphine flying at 100 knots (200 knots closing speed) in a
1000 feet altitude band and within half a mile lateral, in both
directions.

Ramy
* I fly the Whites with the transponder on like almost all responsible
glider pilots do. I also have PCAS on so if there is another pilot
near me with a transponder on I know that. Flarm is technically better
but why would we from the Reno area buy one having a transponder and
PCAS? I think you are missing the point of this discussion. Another
device that will only respond to other glider pilots having a Flarm?
This will not make sense to a large number of pilots who also want
protection from GA. I have said this many times but for us the
transponder is the most important safety device with PCAS a useful add
on. Flarm is a distant ( let me repeat that - A DISTANT THIRD) - on
the safety list of devices. I am not saying it is useless but until
about 50% of the glider pilots in the region you fly use one its
affect is marginal at best. That said I am purchasing one as I don't
see much downside for me but if I really had to tbe serious about
expenditures it would be a distant third on my list of safety devices
- transponder (90%), PCAS (8%) and guess where Flarm would be.
Dave

PS1 How are we going to persuade our FOBs at Minden to make the major
modification to Flarm when the installation of PowerFlarm in their
existing gliders may be difficult to say the least. The conversion to
transponders has been difficult enough for them and for Minden
transponders are clearly superior to Flarm. Hitting a commercial jet
with 200 passengers is not an option!

PS2 I wish risk management was taught in schools in the US.



what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.
Dave

Dave, are you no longer flying to the Whites? Cause otherwise I am
sure you'll agree that in the area you are flying, other than near
Reno, the biggest risk of mid air collision is with another glider
running the White Mountains. On a good day, there can be over 20
gliders dolphine flying at 100 knots (200 knots closing speed) in a
1000 feet altitude band and within half a mile lateral, in both
directions.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Gee Dave, looks like you are mixing between PCAS and TCAS!
Having flown with PCAS in the last 8 years (yes, even before MRX) I
can say that PCAS, until now, where the best and only colision
avoidance system available for gliders, and I would not fly without
one. But having said that, all the PCAS I flew with, including the
MRX, are unreliable, often do not alert you at all, or alert you way
too late (how many times it alerted me of other gliders AFTER they
passed me!), the audio alert often comes too late, the display alert
is hardly noticable unless you looking at it instead of outside, the
distance is very inacurate, the altitude difference is often
completely wrong, it will not alert you at all if there is no
interrogation, and even when everything works as designed, all you
know is that there is another aircraft nearby, but not WHERE. So the
best outcome of PCAS is that it encourages you to scan at the right
moment. That's it. And in case you suspect I have a faulty unit, mine
was at the factory nearly 5 times in the last 5 years, and got
completely replaced twice (great customer service though, they never
charged a dime).
Also Dave, I suggest reading a little more about PowerFlarm. Why do
you think a portbale device will be complicated to install?

Ramy

On Oct 26, 7:38*pm, kd6veb wrote:
On Oct 26, 5:37*pm, Ramy wrote:

On Oct 26, 10:46*am, kd6veb wrote:

Hi Gang
* Surely flying in a thermal with a gaggle of other gliders is
suicidal period. And what use is a Flarm in those conditions? I have a
Phoenix on order and am anticipating putting a PowerFlarm in it. Why?
Because the PowerFlarm has a PCAS function in addition to the Flarm
function and the PowerFlarm costs only a little more than a Zaon PCAS..
I do think the mandatory use of Flarm is a good idea for comps
especially if one can inexpensively rent a Flarm. But outside of comps
with the flying I do having a transponder is by far the most important
piece of safety equipment I have on board. A PCAS is also worth
having. Having a Flarm? It is a useless device until the use of Flarm
by the gliding community reaches critical mass (usage). That is
unlikely to happen here in the US for several years at best. And then
*Ramy wrote:

Dave, are you no longer flying to the Whites? Cause otherwise I am
sure you'll agree that in the area you are flying, other than near
Reno, the biggest risk of mid air collision is with another glider
running the White Mountains. On a good day, there can be over 20
gliders dolphine flying at 100 knots (200 knots closing speed) in a
1000 feet altitude band and within half a mile lateral, in both
directions.

Ramy
* I fly the Whites with the transponder on like almost all responsible
glider pilots do. I also have PCAS on so if there is another pilot
near me with a transponder on I know that. Flarm is technically better
but why would we from the Reno area buy one having a transponder and
PCAS? I think you are missing the point of this discussion. Another
device that will only respond to other glider pilots having a Flarm?
This will not make sense to a large number of pilots who also want
protection from GA. I have said this many times but for us the
transponder is the most important safety device with PCAS a useful add
on. Flarm is a distant ( let me repeat that - A DISTANT THIRD) - on
the safety list of devices. I am not saying it is useless but until
about 50% of the glider pilots in the region you fly use one its
affect is marginal at best. That said I am purchasing one as I don't
see much downside for me but if I really had to tbe serious about
expenditures it would be a distant third on my list of safety devices
- transponder (90%), PCAS (8%) and guess where Flarm would be.
Dave

PS1 How are we going to persuade our FOBs at Minden to make the major
modification to Flarm when the installation of PowerFlarm in their
existing gliders may be difficult to say the least. The conversion to
transponders has been difficult enough for them and for Minden
transponders are clearly superior to Flarm. Hitting a commercial jet
with 200 passengers is not an option!

PS2 I wish risk management was taught in schools in the US.

what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.
Dave

Dave, are you no longer flying to the Whites? Cause otherwise I am
sure you'll agree that in the area you are flying, other than near
Reno, the biggest risk of mid air collision is with another glider
running the White Mountains. On a good day, there can be over 20
gliders dolphine flying at 100 knots (200 knots closing speed) in a
1000 feet altitude band and within half a mile lateral, in both
directions.

Ramy



It has been a few years since I've been on the Whites, but I've done
that enough times with a transponder and PCAS and with enough other
gliders all with different levels of transponder and PCAS equipage
that I can say its a helpful warning at times but also scary how
poorly it works as well when running at high speed close to the rocks
with lots of other gliders around. It's out little part of the
European Alps glider traffic problem relocated to sunny California.
You can be getting PCAS alerts from gliders behind you and miss the
one coming head on at you until too late. The lack of directional
clues have you sweating if that new alert at exactly your altitude is
ahead or behind you - since as Ramy points out everybody often ends up
on the same race track . There are also locations where you round an
obstruction and then are surprised by a glider coming the other way
but you never say its transponder because you did not have line of
sight. Flarm will have a similar issue with only line of sight
coverage but the huge difference is that as soon as you get line of
sight you get immediate (~ 1 sec) information including direction to
any threat and the threat assessment is much more sophisticated. It
should be no surprise that PCAS has problems in this type scenario, it
is just not really intended for this - something Flarm is used for
widely in Europe.

Dave I assume you are trolling here a bit for fun since you've tried
to stir up similar discussions on other forums and then made clear you
already have decided to buy a PowerFLARM. You guys should be working
on a bulk-buy for PowerFLARM out of Minden and see how much real
interest there is there. A significant number of the SF Bay Area
pilots who do serous XC out of the Reno/Miden/Truckee area have
committed to purchase PowerFLARM arleady and its early days yet -- so
far I count around 15 committed purchases from SF Bay Area/Central
Valley pilots who fly serious XC out of the Reno/Minden/Truckee area
during summer - and almost every one to a man has a transponder
already (I am aware of one who does not -- and he knows who he is and
he plans to fix that as well :-)). I don't have a feel for local
Minden/Truckee pilot purchase plans -- but I hope to see enough of you
guys at this Saturday's PASCO saftey seminar that we can talk about it
live.

Regards


Darryl

On Oct 26, 10:46*am, kd6veb wrote:
what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.

Seems to like cheap insurance for helicopters in metro areas as well
as airports with heavy training operations, as well as places such as
the Grand Canyon with heavy sightseeing operations. All of these
situations could easily get buy-in with a little bit of peer pressure
and local politics. Don't get the FAA involved, instead local pilot
groups and FBOs / commercial operators could make the case for
PowerFlarm as a useful tool for high density VFR operations. As
mentioned in other threads, ADS/B and ATC are just not designed for
these operations.

I recall that after the helicopter midair near Phoenix a few years
ago, there was a local news story of someone working on a $50K (fifty
thousand) solution to prevent these accidents.

Just my $0.02

-Tom

On 10/26/2010 10:22 PM, 5Z wrote:
On Oct 26, 10:46 am, wrote:
what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.

Seems to like cheap insurance for helicopters in metro areas as well
as airports with heavy training operations, as well as places such as
the Grand Canyon with heavy sightseeing operations. All of these
situations could easily get buy-in with a little bit of peer pressure
and local politics. Don't get the FAA involved, instead local pilot
groups and FBOs / commercial operators could make the case for
PowerFlarm as a useful tool for high density VFR operations. As
mentioned in other threads, ADS/B and ATC are just not designed for
these operations.

I recall that after the helicopter midair near Phoenix a few years
ago, there was a local news story of someone working on a $50K (fifty
thousand) solution to prevent these accidents.

Just my $0.02

-Tom

What would make you think that ADS-B was not designed for high density
VFR operations???? That's exactly what it was designed for, before the
FAA focused everyone's attention on using the technology to decrease
separations between IFR aircraft.

--
Mike Schumann