FES selflaunch

On Feb 27, 5:31*am, LimaZulu wrote:
I would like to inform you that we made first self-launch with FES
installed on Silent 2 sailplane.
You can fiind video of this important moment on:http://www.front-electric-sustainer.com
Regards,
Luka Znidarsic

looks very interesting!!!!

Originally Posted by silentpilot

On Feb 27, 5:31*am, LimaZulu wrote:
I would like to inform you that we made first self-launch with FES
installed on Silent 2 sailplane.
You can fiind video of this important moment on:http://www.front-electric-sustainer.com
Regards,
Luka Znidarsic

looks very interesting!!!!

While I am fascinated by the self launcher, the sustainer and the like, I have long been curious as to why a glider with a motor doesn't require an "airplane, single engine, land" license to fly. Just curious.

Walt

On Feb 27, 3:42*pm, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
silentpilot;763779 Wrote:

On Feb 27, 5:31*am, LimaZulu wrote:-
I would like to inform you that we made first self-launch with FES
installed on Silent 2 sailplane.
You can fiind video of this important moment
on:http://www.front-electric-sustainer.com
Regards,
Luka Znidarsic-

looks very interesting!!!!

While I am fascinated by the self launcher, the sustainer and the like,
I have long been curious as to why a glider with a motor doesn't require
an "airplane, single engine, land" license to fly. *Just curious. *

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

Because its not a ASEL aircraft. What do you would think would happen
if you set loose a typical power pilot in a self launch motorglider?

Having a background with a power ticket can help a lot but so does
some common sense. The quality of checkouts for a self launch
endorsement vary, and especially if done in a touring style
motorglider need some thought in applciation to a single seater
retracting mast type self launcher with basic operation and emergency
procedures. The user community you often find around particular
motorglider types is a huge asset.

Darryl

On Feb 27, 7:13*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:


Because its not a ASEL aircraft. What do you would think would happen
if you set loose a typical power pilot in a self launch motorglider?

What would happen if you set him loose in a sea plane, a twin or a
jet? It's at least arguable the skill gap between single engine land
and any of those is comparable to that between a pure glider and a
self-launcher yet they each require a specific rating.

Some motorgliders easily approach the complexity and work load of
flying a light twin.

I think Walt has a good question.

Bill Daniels

On Feb 28, 5:16*pm, bildan wrote:
Some motorgliders easily approach the complexity and work load of
flying a light twin.

I think Walt has a good question.

Is there a demonstrated problem? Are there people killing themselves
in motorgliders due to engine handling issues? Is it due to something
that experience in a C152 would help with?

If people are having any problems specific to motorgliders I imagine
it's due to being distracted putting the engine away, or attempting to
start and failing and not having a landing field picked out. Time
banging around a circuit in a 152 isn't going to do anything for that.

I recently asked (on a mainly GA Power pilots’) forum what extra
hazards a glider pilot might need to think about, when acquiring a
self-sustaining glider. (I am getting a FES, but not the self-launch
variety.)

Many of the responses related to internal combustion engines, rather
than electric. For what it is worth, this was my question and my first
thought, followed by is the list I got from various people, edited to
avoid duplications;

-------------
Normally, flying a pure glider, there are certain hazards that power
pilots all too frequently fall victim to, that we don't. One example
is pressing on into increasingly bad weather, lowering cloud base,
often resulting in CFIT when the plan B of turning back turns out not
to work. In a glider, it is almost impossible to be in this position
in the first place, because you can't maintain height under a lowering
cloud base that is turning to rain or worse. In fact you wouldn't be
going cross-country initially in those conditions.

By next season, I hope to have a sustainer engine in my glider. This
will enable me to cruise for about one hour at 50 knots at level
height (e.g., to get home instead of landing out in a farmer’s field).
Although it is unlikely that I would be going cross-country in the
conditions described above, it is conceivable that I might use
thermals to reach a patch of bad weather, and so need to avoid the
temptation to fall into the same trap and end up with CFIT.

My question is: what other pitfalls, not normally faced by a glider
pilot, might I now have to be aware of, when going into sustained
powered flight for up to an hour? (I cannot take off with the
sustainer motor – still need a conventional glider launch by winch or
aerotow.)

---------------------
Engine fires - not something a glider pilot normally has to worry
about.

Effect of icing.

Carb ice.

Engine failures - you'd have to go through some of the same drills as
a powered pilot.

The effect on your compass. It will need swinging twice - once with
the engine on and working and once in the pure glider mode.

The effect of propwash on the handling. if it blows over the elevator
and or rudder it will make them much more powerful and also torque and
gyroscopic effect will alter the handling.

Depending on where the thrust line is it will also affect the pitch,
particularly if it is pylon mounted.

Added weight of engine and fuel will complicate C of G /Ballast/etc
calculations.

Fuel contamination will be a 'new' problem.

Mag problems, freezing of moisture on ignition.

Fuel pump problems - assuming your engine is above the tank..

Noise and vibration will increase fatigue.

Vibration will affect fatigue life of glider sealing of hatches etc
assuming your engine is a 'pop out'.

'Jamming' of controls from cockpit to engine potential 'heating' of
cockpit when engine is running.

Extra drag if engine sticks in 'out' position.

----------------------

What do others think?

Chris N.

On 2/28/2011 2:19 AM, Chris Nicholas wrote:
I recently asked (on a mainly GA Power pilots’) forum what extra
hazards a glider pilot might need to think about, when acquiring a
self-sustaining glider. (I am getting a FES, but not the self-launch
variety.)

Many of the responses related to internal combustion engines, rather
than electric. For what it is worth, this was my question and my first
thought, followed by is the list I got from various people, edited to
avoid duplications;

I address some of the problems in my "A Guide to Self-launching
Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" (tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz); however, because
it's a sustainer with simple "retraction" and electric, you avoid
many/most of the problems.

Read my Guide, then after a season with the FES, let me know what
_should_ have been in the Guide to prepare you for your glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Originally Posted by bildan

On Feb 27, 7:13*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:


Because its not a ASEL aircraft. What do you would think would happen
if you set loose a typical power pilot in a self launch motorglider?

What would happen if you set him loose in a sea plane, a twin or a
jet? It's at least arguable the skill gap between single engine land
and any of those is comparable to that between a pure glider and a
self-launcher yet they each require a specific rating.

Some motorgliders easily approach the complexity and work load of
flying a light twin.

I think Walt has a good question.

Bill Daniels

I think my point was missed. I am not opposed to the glider pilot having an engine, I was curious as to how one got around the ASEL situation. In my mind if you put an engine on and glider it becomes an ASEL. Take the pure motor glider with an engine hanging on the nose. Could an ASEL pilot check out in one and fly it legally? Perhaps a light sport pilot could do the same? Sure these things are gonna float like no conventional ASEL would but I'm just asking a question. I need to check the regs on this for myself when I get the chance but I realize this forum contains a plethora of information.

I have a commercial rating for both airplanes and gliders so I think I see both sides of the equation. In my mind, the glider pilot's skill is greater than an equivalent time ASEL type. I learned things I never knew and developed greater skills in flying than I had when I transitioned from power to gliders., But when an ASEL type want to fly a multi, he is required to get a multi engine rating and it appears on his license. Same with seaplane and other different types of ratings. I believe the endorsement is all that is required of a glider pilot for a motor glider, am I right?

For the record I have seen a high time, highly experienced power and glider pilot make a major blunder with his motor out. Scared the crappola out of me and I was standing on the ground at the time. The bottom line is that proper training and check outs are everything.

Walt

Walt

It does not become an ASEL, its type certified (or experimental) as a
glider. Now it might be possible if somebody really wanted to have
some touring motorglider certified under either - and some may well
have been.

Asking for them to be ASEL would be the *last* think I would want, but
I am concerned that the self launch endorsement training can be
problematic - its possible for somebody to sign a pilot off but as
Bill says some of these are complex and things like system
understanding, pre-flight/simple maintenance and emergency procedures
need to be really gone through well. And all this vary widely between
types--especially between a typical retracting mast and touring style
motorglider. And chance to practice emergency procedures in a complex
single seater without the instructor being there is reduced, but this
at least better get talked about, and the instructor better make sure
you know where to put your fingers when things go pear shaped.

I've met motorglider owners who seem oblivious to about simple stuff
like the proper oil to use, how the lubrication system and different
alarms on the engines work -- scary stuff. Did they ever read the
pilot or maintenance manual?

I used to have a power license, I did my formal self launch sign off
in a Grob 109, not at all relevant to the ASH-26E that I fly, but both
the (very experienced) instructor and I knew that and he pushed me on
a nasty windy day. In reality it was really a ASEL taildragger sign
off, but we talked though some of the nasty stuff with retracting mast
motorgliders. Then through the ASH-26E owners community I ended up
sitting down with a current very experienced owner and did an informal
ground school then talked things over with an instructor/examiner who
signed me off in the ASH-26E. I felt like I had pretty good training,
but YMMV.

There are some good instructors out here who can teach this stuff, but
there are just not many of them, and not many two seat motorgliders.

Darryl

On Feb 28, 7:53*am, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
bildan;763822 Wrote:



On Feb 27, 7:13*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
-

Because its not a ASEL aircraft. What do you would think would happen
if you set loose a typical power pilot in a self launch motorglider?-

What would happen if you set him loose in a sea plane, a twin or a
jet? *It's at least arguable the skill gap between single engine land
and any of those is comparable to that between a pure glider and a
self-launcher yet they each require a specific rating.

Some motorgliders easily approach the complexity and work load of
flying a light twin.

I think Walt has a good question.

Bill Daniels

I think my point was missed. *I am not opposed to the glider pilot
having an engine, I was curious as to how one got around the ASEL
situation. *In my mind if you put an engine on and glider it becomes an
ASEL. * Take the pure motor glider with an engine hanging on the nose.
Could an ASEL pilot check out in one and fly it legally? *Perhaps a
light sport pilot could do the same? *Sure these things are gonna float
like no conventional ASEL would but I'm just asking a question. I need
to check the regs on this for myself when I get the chance but I realize
this forum contains a plethora of information.

I have a commercial rating for both airplanes and gliders so I think I
see both sides of the equation. *In my mind, the glider pilot's skill is
greater than an equivalent time ASEL type. *I learned things I never
knew and developed greater skills in flying than I had when I
transitioned from power to gliders., *But when an ASEL type want to fly
a multi, he is required to get a multi engine rating and it appears on
his license. *Same with seaplane and other different types of ratings.
I believe the endorsement is all that is required of a glider pilot for
a motor glider, am I right?

For the record I have seen a high time, highly experienced power and
glider pilot make a major blunder with his motor out. *Scared the
crappola out of me and I was standing on the ground at the time. *The
bottom line is that proper training and check outs are everything.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

My $ .02

What makes an aircraft a motor glider is the "span loading", which
determines, more than a power source, the flight characteristics of an
aircraft.

Mike