"The New Soldier" by John Kerry et al

Actually, the thing that makes Kerry more electable is that he is over
six feet tall. How long since we've had a president under six feet?

I was able to check The New Soldier out of the library yesterday. It
is astonishing how recognizable Kerry is in the photographs, though to
be sure it's not his height that marks him, but his teeth and jaw.

The New Soldier is quite a period piece. What a hairy bunch we were in
those days! (Kerry was clean-shaven, and his sideburns came down no
lower than the bottom of his ear-lobes.)


|Dean is a moderate Governor from Vermont and John Kerry is just to the left
|of Ted Kennedy. Dean could have moved to the center after running left for
|the primaries, but Kerry's paper trail is much too long for him to be a
|credable centrist. I don't see how Kerry is more "electable" than Dean.

Because Dean kissed up to the radicals within the party while
Kerry held back. Thus the moderates, the ones who were ****ed at
the radicals in republicans, rejected Dean. With a lot of
"guidance" from the DNC, of course.



all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

He's gone so far as to say that such behavior was widespread, that it
was a matter of policy, and that it was known to officers at all levels,
implying that it was condoned as a normal matter.

In The New Soldier, he specifically criticizes the trial of Lt Calley,
arguing that at My Lai 4 Calley was only doing what he was expected to
do.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message ...
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
m...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...


Now it's time for you to answer a question I didn't ask or make some
gratuitous comment about the 'cheapness' of Kerry's Purple Hearts.

Not gratuitous--the comment about the PH's is valid; can you name any
other
troops who got three of those without missing any duty days?



Technically he missed two days. Next time you've taken shrapnel in the
thigh remember those little scratches. Kerry didn't make the rules but
he played them.

Well, in the same spirit as the Kerry camp's "release Bush's records now"
chants of a few days back, I am sure a full release of any medical records
listing the severity of said wounds would be welcomed with open arms by
Kerry, right?

It's 30 years, as I have said elsewhere would you like what you did 30
years ago laid out today in terms of today's standards?

There is a wee bit of a difference when what the guy is saying is that the
majority of the grunts and their leaders were guilty of war crimes. That is
what Mr. Kerry was saying thirty years ago.



Do you think Kerry was going to lose that hot job of running that boat
in combat over some flesh wound? On the war crimes: were they, did
they? Lots of GIs came back with enormous psychological problems that
can't be blamed on the hot weather. As I said before, you start
keeping score with a body count in a war where your mess waiter may be
an enemy colonel and you are pushing the edge of the line.

try this one for comparitive records over the same time frame:
http://www.motherjones.com/news/upda...02/02_400.html

Cub Driver wrote:

He's gone so far as to say that such behavior was widespread, that it
was a matter of policy, and that it was known to officers at all levels,
implying that it was condoned as a normal matter.

In The New Soldier, he specifically criticizes the trial of Lt Calley,
arguing that at My Lai 4 Calley was only doing what he was expected to
do.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

It may come as a shock to the youngsters in the group, but many in the US
thought Calley's actions were perfectly respectable, and perhaps
commendable. You could drive through the countryside and see banners reading
"Free Calley!".

This was not a time of calm, reasoned, and polite debate.

Bob McKellar

R. David Steele muttered....



What is coming out is how much we democrats hate each other.



Given the quality of performance, it's amazing that self-hatred is the
worst you can come up with. ....Be more fitting if you simply fell on your
swords and put yourselves out of your misery (and relieved the rest of us
from having the bear your anguished pontificating and near endless spiel of
self-aggrandizing self-justification).

TMO

Cub Driver wrote:

:He's gone so far as to say that such behavior was widespread, that it
:was a matter of policy, and that it was known to officers at all levels,
:implying that it was condoned as a normal matter.
:
:In The New Soldier, he specifically criticizes the trial of Lt Calley,
:arguing that at My Lai 4 Calley was only doing what he was expected to
:do.

And he's got a valid point. The investigation there, if investigation
there was to be, should have started with the commanding general of
Americal Division and worked its way down, not started with some poor
lieutenant and failed to work its way up.

--
"I thought dying for your country was the worst thing that could
happen to you. I think killing for your country can be a lot
worse. Because that's the memory that haunts."
-- Senator Bob Kerrey

R. David Steele wrote:

:
:| Sorry, but Dean isn't making 'moderate' noises. He's only electable
:| if you're one of the "I hate Bush" brigade.
:|
:|Sorry, Fred, but even those of us who hate Bush don't like Dean...
:
:it is interesting that Dean and Clark were all the rage, in 2003.
:Now they are looking to get out. Dean looked pathetic on Fox
:Sunday Morning. So sad.
:
:What is coming out is how much we democrats hate each other.

It's like Will Rogers said, "Oh, I don't belong to an organized
political party. I'm a Democrat."

"Olivers" wrote

Given the quality of performance, it's amazing that self-hatred is the
worst you can come up with. ....Be more fitting if you simply fell on
your
swords and put yourselves out of your misery (and relieved the rest of us
from having the bear your anguished pontificating and near endless spiel
of
self-aggrandizing self-justification).

Bah. I am now officially no longer smitten with you. Hmpf.

Loki

In article , R. David
Steele wrote:



One of the good things that came from Vietnam was the military
wised up. We now have a Center for Lessons Learned so that we do
not make the mistakes like body counts being the primary focus.
The CALL is very good about making sure that every enlisted
person does an After Action Review when coming back. AARs are
then sent to CALL.



MACV published a "Lessons Learned" series during the war. At the time,
they were classified CONFIDENTIAL, but were subject to automatic
downgrading -- I think 3 years, but certainly no more than 12. Might be
useful for some university to scan them and put them online.

"Kevin Brooks" wrote...

A darned lot more than "some".

And a darn lot less than 'all'. In some cases... the uses of
unobserved harassmment and interdiction fires in populated areas, for
example... he's probably right, as well. take a look at Protocol 1
Additional to the Geneva Conventions, 1977, Article 57.

Can you name any defense programs he actually *supported*?

Sure, that's easy. Go to
http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/leg...sers/votes.htm
and actually look at his voting record. It's fairly straightforward --
I just searched for 'defense' and then looked at the voting records.
You'll see a variety of (a) defense appropriation bills and (b)
specific programme appropriation bills that he voted for.

Answer the question!

I think that I did. He got his teeth done: what else did he do? From
what people are saying about Guard service at that time, it appears to
have been quite possible to be on duty and not actually be doing very
much of anything at all... especially if one was the son of a senator.
And teh record dates involved were, apparently, the dates that he
drilled.

Compared to Kerry, he *is* a paragon of patriotism.

How so? Kerry asks questions, he doesn't? Kerry expressed doubts about
American actions, he didn't? What makes George II a patriot, but not
John Kerry?

So you say...no surpise in your choice of descriptive terms, given your
bent.

You betcha. I don't make the assumption that every time the USA goes
to war it's Saving the World. There were probably 1.5 million - 2
million people killed in that war, which is considerably out of
proportion to anything that it accomplished.

they *should* have ordered his sorry butt back to active
duty and told him that, IAW the laws of warfare and the UCMJ, he had to
provide specifics in regards to his allegations of war crimes so that we
could investigate an prosecute any actual criminals

Nah, unlikely at that point. After all, what if he'd done so?

You and I have differing views of what makes someone "admirable". I find the
Army aviators who landed at My Lai and placed themselves in between the
perpetrators and some of the soon-to-be victims as being "admirable"...

Actually, I find that admirable as well. You don't like what Kerry
said after a war that, AFAIK, he was in and you (and I) weren't? Fine,
but that's hardly a reason to condemn him, in my book. He'd decided
that he'd participated in a stupid and costly war, and he spoke up
about it... using the language of a young man, maybe, but what he said
was very far from being horse manure. If anything, I think that the
pointlessness of that war backs up a lot of hwat he said.

No, my attacks would be conducted against Kerry if he was with *any* party.

(Shrug) If you say so. Usenet is never the measure of anyone, but your
posts look as reliably right-wing as mine do leftie.

Scott