Question about the F-22 and cost.

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 09:01:18 +1100, John Cook wrote:

If the JSF isn't made to be a pretty good autonomous fighter (read
as 'the JSF must have a sensor suite that's as good as the present
F15's')

I've not heard that before. Is it likely the F-35 sensors will be
that cut-down?

then the Partner nations won't be very happy (Note how the
Netherlands are keeping in with the Typhoon program), and may shop
elsewhere.

I expect in that instance Britain would consider having its F-35s
contain the same sensor set as the Typhoon.

The nasty part of this is then the price of the JSF skyrockets!!
(it started out at around $25M USD), you'll find it will be well over
double that now, and possible treble come production time.

All military aircraft increase in price over time. In part this is a
deliberate ploy by defence contractors, some of whom have admitted
as much.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 09:01:18 +1100, John Cook
wrote:

If the JSF isn't made to be a pretty good autonomous fighter (read
as 'the JSF must have a sensor suite that's as good as the present
F15's')

I've not heard that before. Is it likely the F-35 sensors will be
that cut-down?

The F-35 was late enough to get some COTS relief, so it is likely to have
superior sensors and integration when compared to the F-22. Letting
engineers buy parts saves a lot of heartache, if the program follows a few
simple rules.

In article ,
ess (phil hunt) wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 09:01:18 +1100, John Cook wrote:

If the JSF isn't made to be a pretty good autonomous fighter (read
as 'the JSF must have a sensor suite that's as good as the present
F15's')

I've not heard that before. Is it likely the F-35 sensors will be
that cut-down?

then the Partner nations won't be very happy (Note how the
Netherlands are keeping in with the Typhoon program), and may shop
elsewhere.

I expect in that instance Britain would consider having its F-35s
contain the same sensor set as the Typhoon.

You may be surprised at the capabilities of the so-called "cut down"
sensor system. Typhoon currently has a mechanically scanned
radar. It does not have the capabilities of even the cut down JSF
system.


The nasty part of this is then the price of the JSF skyrockets!!
(it started out at around $25M USD), you'll find it will be well over
double that now, and possible treble come production time.

All military aircraft increase in price over time. In part this is a
deliberate ploy by defence contractors, some of whom have admitted
as much.

I've never heard such a confession and I've been in the industry for
25+ years. Can you provide a source please?
IME the cost growth over time have been the result of a steady
increase in performance at the request of the customer.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

"Harry Andreas" wrote in message
...


I've never heard such a confession and I've been in the industry for
25+ years. Can you provide a source please?
IME the cost growth over time have been the result of a steady
increase in performance at the request of the customer.

The schedule slippage is the cause of the steadily decreasing number of
F-22s for delivery. The schedule slip is a direct rsult of performance
issues.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:16:23 -0800, Harry Andreas wrote:
In article ,
(phil hunt) wrote:

I expect in that instance Britain would consider having its F-35s
contain the same sensor set as the Typhoon.

You may be surprised at the capabilities of the so-called "cut down"
sensor system. Typhoon currently has a mechanically scanned
radar.

Yes, I know, I was considering the phased one to replace it.

All military aircraft increase in price over time. In part this is a
deliberate ploy by defence contractors, some of whom have admitted
as much.

I've never heard such a confession and I've been in the industry for
25+ years. Can you provide a source please?

Sure.

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2442322

Sir Raymond Lygo is a former boss of British Aerospace, so I
imagine he knows what he's talking about.

IME the cost growth over time have been the result of a steady
increase in performance at the request of the customer.

Yes, that's part of the ploy. to quote the article:

---------------------- begin ----------------------
I think it's a well-known fact, whether anybody admits it or not, is
you'll never get any programme through the Government if you ever
revealed the real cost.

Whatever you want to get through Government, you have to first of
all establish what is the Treasury likely to approve in terms of
money? And then you think, what can you offer for these terms within
the parameters that have been set? And pretty often it is pretty
nearly impossible.

So you say right, we can do this and we'll do it for the price and
then the programme goes ahead. But you know automatically that it's
going to cost more than that because it will.

And so after a year you say 'I'm terribly sorry but the costs have
now risen for this reason and the other reason'.
----------------------- end -----------------------


--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)