Germany Lost the War... So What?

The US postwar history:

Korea: stalemate
Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate
Vietnam: LOST
Operation Eagle Claw (Iranian Hostage Rescue): Failure
Lebanon: Marines blown up- failure
Reagan-Bush years: a string of success shooting down a few Libyan MiGs
and attacking small puny nations with no AF- Victory?
Gulf War I: had to raise a coalition to fight another Third World
nation, didn't finish the job which leads to Gulf War II. Kurds and
population suffer as a result.
The Balkans: another attack on an unworthy adversary. Serbs leave with
their armor and military/police units intact. International force
needed.
Terrorist attack on the USS Cole: failed
9/11: could prevent terrorist attack, 3000 fatalities
Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama
escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure.
Iraq prewar: Fires at US aircraft for 7 years, US retaliates in 1998,
Iraq resumes firing at US aircraft for 4 more years
Gulf War II: US goes it alone, captures Saddam but cannot get real
reconstruction support or troops needed to finish the job due to
isolating UN and certain European nations- failure

Wow, how underwhelming it all is. We seem to be able to pound into
submission any puny Third World nation without a significant AF. But
we don't dare strike Iran, N Korea, or China. In fact China openly
threatens the US over Taiwan and is militarily developing systems to
defeat our stealth, satellites, and to attack the US with missiles in
the future. Iran has threatened the US over its nuclear reactor and N
Korea has done the same over its nuclear program which we failed to
stop. BTW, try attacking the FSU even at its weakest... they have
twice the nukes we have and we all know the history of those that
invade Mother Russia. On their turf the US would lose, same in China.
So I don't care how many time you say Germany lost. Germany is the
size of 1 US state and took on the world. It took everyone with
everything to beat them.
The US in Vietnam was a Superpower giant with the greatest technology
on earth... and lost to peasants walking through the jungle at night
in pajamas armed with an AK-47, machetes, mines, grenades and RPGs.
The US may be the lone Superpower on paper but our track record
post-WW2 isn't that great.

Rob

Nazi German post war history:


crickets

In article ,
Krztalizer wrote:
Nazi German post war history:

crickets

Add: Occasional war criminals dancing the hemp fandango to general
approval.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
The US postwar history:


Facts arent your strong point are they ?

Korea: stalemate

South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK
and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the
DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making.

Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate

Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

Vietnam: LOST
Operation Eagle Claw (Iranian Hostage Rescue): Failure
Lebanon: Marines blown up- failure

True enough

Reagan-Bush years: a string of success shooting down a few Libyan MiGs
and attacking small puny nations with no AF- Victory?

Then there's the little matter of the fall of communism, the
dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the USSR


Gulf War I: had to raise a coalition to fight another Third World
nation, didn't finish the job which leads to Gulf War II. Kurds and
population suffer as a result.

The war aims of expelling Iraq from Kuwait were achieved

The Balkans: another attack on an unworthy adversary. Serbs leave with
their armor and military/police units intact. International force
needed.

The war aims of protecting the Kosovans from Serbian ethnic cleansing
were achieved

Terrorist attack on the USS Cole: failed

Quite so, the ship was repaired and re-entered service

9/11: could prevent terrorist attack, 3000 fatalities
Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama
escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure.

Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups

Iraq prewar: Fires at US aircraft for 7 years, US retaliates in 1998,
Iraq resumes firing at US aircraft for 4 more years
Gulf War II: US goes it alone, captures Saddam but cannot get real
reconstruction support or troops needed to finish the job due to
isolating UN and certain European nations- failure


The British troops who took Southern Iraq and Basra tend to disagree
about the going it alone bit.

Wow, how underwhelming it all is. We seem to be able to pound into
submission any puny Third World nation without a significant AF.

Iraq started GW1 with the 4th largest army in the world and
a large AF and air defence system, of course when it was over ....

But
we don't dare strike Iran, N Korea, or China. In fact China openly
threatens the US over Taiwan and is militarily developing systems to
defeat our stealth, satellites, and to attack the US with missiles in
the future. Iran has threatened the US over its nuclear reactor and N
Korea has done the same over its nuclear program which we failed to
stop. BTW, try attacking the FSU even at its weakest... they have
twice the nukes we have and we all know the history of those that
invade Mother Russia. On their turf the US would lose, same in China.

The difference of course is the US knows that, your hero Adolf didnt.

So I don't care how many time you say Germany lost. Germany is the
size of 1 US state and took on the world. It took everyone with
everything to beat them.

Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined
and controlled the combined industries of western europe
and couldnt even beat Britain.

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

I don't wish to appear to join the loony "good old days of the Reich" side
of this discussion, but the Cuban missile crisis was such a clear-cut US
victory, since Kennedy negotiated the removal of the Russian missiles by
offering to remove his own from Turkey.

Si

"Simon Robbins" wrote in message
...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

I don't wish to appear to join the loony "good old days of the Reich" side
of this discussion, but the Cuban missile crisis was such a clear-cut US
victory, since Kennedy negotiated the removal of the Russian missiles by
offering to remove his own from Turkey.


Sure but they were early liquid fueled IRBM's (Jupiter IRC) that were
removed
from service worldwide by 1963 in any event.

Keith

In article ,
"Simon Robbins" writes:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

I don't wish to appear to join the loony "good old days of the Reich" side
of this discussion, but the Cuban missile crisis was such a clear-cut US
victory, since Kennedy negotiated the removal of the Russian missiles by
offering to remove his own from Turkey.

That seems to be the latest buzz, but its interesting to note that the
Jupiters in Turkey had been slated in 1961 to be retired in 1963-64, a year
before the missile Crisis.
Quite frankly, the Jupiters weren't good for much, anyway. (Despite
being designed by Wehrner von Braun's team at Redstone Arsenal). The
supposed mobility was worthless, they couldn't be based in a hardened
structure like a coffin or silo, and their reaction time (fuelling &
arming) was so long that they were vulnerable to airplanes from
Bulgaria.

Check out "The Other Missiles of October" if you get the chance.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
The US postwar history:


Facts arent your strong point are they ?

Korea: stalemate

South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK
and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the
DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making.

Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate

Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

And the Jupiters from Turkey as Russia demanded, along with assurances
that US would not invade Cuba. Stalemate.


Vietnam: LOST
Operation Eagle Claw (Iranian Hostage Rescue): Failure
Lebanon: Marines blown up- failure

True enough

Reagan-Bush years: a string of success shooting down a few Libyan MiGs
and attacking small puny nations with no AF- Victory?

Then there's the little matter of the fall of communism, the
dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the USSR


Gulf War I: had to raise a coalition to fight another Third World
nation, didn't finish the job which leads to Gulf War II. Kurds and
population suffer as a result.

The war aims of expelling Iraq from Kuwait were achieved

The Balkans: another attack on an unworthy adversary. Serbs leave with
their armor and military/police units intact. International force
needed.

The war aims of protecting the Kosovans from Serbian ethnic cleansing
were achieved

Terrorist attack on the USS Cole: failed

Quite so, the ship was repaired and re-entered service

It was a very sucessful attack. 56 casualties, a cool quarter billion
in repairs, ship out of the service for more than an year.


9/11: could prevent terrorist attack, 3000 fatalities
Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama
escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure.

Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups

Terrorists out, drug lords in. And I suppose all those reports of
Taliban resurgence in the Pashtun areas are all propaganda.


Iraq prewar: Fires at US aircraft for 7 years, US retaliates in 1998,
Iraq resumes firing at US aircraft for 4 more years
Gulf War II: US goes it alone, captures Saddam but cannot get real
reconstruction support or troops needed to finish the job due to
isolating UN and certain European nations- failure


The British troops who took Southern Iraq and Basra tend to disagree
about the going it alone bit.

Wow, how underwhelming it all is. We seem to be able to pound into
submission any puny Third World nation without a significant AF.

Iraq started GW1 with the 4th largest army in the world and
a large AF and air defence system, of course when it was over ....

But
we don't dare strike Iran, N Korea, or China. In fact China openly
threatens the US over Taiwan and is militarily developing systems to
defeat our stealth, satellites, and to attack the US with missiles in
the future. Iran has threatened the US over its nuclear reactor and N
Korea has done the same over its nuclear program which we failed to
stop. BTW, try attacking the FSU even at its weakest... they have
twice the nukes we have and we all know the history of those that
invade Mother Russia. On their turf the US would lose, same in China.

The difference of course is the US knows that, your hero Adolf didnt.

So I don't care how many time you say Germany lost. Germany is the
size of 1 US state and took on the world. It took everyone with
everything to beat them.

Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined

LOL! Tell us more.

and controlled the combined industries of western europe
and couldnt even beat Britain.

Before the War Germany was a major (but not predominant) power in
Europe. Today it still is a major (but not predominant) power in
Europe. Before the war Britain was a major world power with a globe
spanning empire - today it is a mere lackey to the US. Germany might
not have won, but Britain sure seems to have lost.


Keith

"Tuollaf43" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
The US postwar history:


Facts arent your strong point are they ?

Korea: stalemate

South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK
and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the
DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making.

Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate

Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

And the Jupiters from Turkey as Russia demanded, along with assurances
that US would not invade Cuba. Stalemate.

Older missiles already planned for removal--we had a new program coming
online about that time which you may have heard of...Polaris? We also
removed the Thors from the UK at about the same time, and for the same
reasons--they were liquid fueled and had been made superfluous.

snip

Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama
escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure.

Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups

Terrorists out, drug lords in. And I suppose all those reports of
Taliban resurgence in the Pashtun areas are all propaganda.

Uhmmm... the key at this point is,as Keith pointed out, it is no longer
serving as an open bazaar and training ground for terrorists--and that a few
other nations took note and became a bit less receptive of other terrorist
operations.

snip


Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined

LOL! Tell us more.

Uhmmm...the total population of Germany in 1940 was some 80 million, the US
population was about 130 million, with the top four states (NY, PA, TX, CA)
only accounting for some 34 million--so you can run the numbers further if
you like, but it appears Keith's statement is in fact correct.

www.ciaonet.org/book/schweller/appendix.html


and controlled the combined industries of western europe
and couldnt even beat Britain.

Before the War Germany was a major (but not predominant) power in
Europe. Today it still is a major (but not predominant) power in
Europe.

Thank goodness for the Marshall Plan, huh?

Before the war Britain was a major world power with a globe
spanning empire - today it is a mere lackey to the US.

That's not correct. The UK remains an independent nation; that it has
happened to agree with the US in more cases than it disagrees is as much a
product of common values than anything else. Reading anything further into
it merely indicates a degree of paranoia on your part.

Germany might
not have won,

No, there is no doubt--she did not win. Thank goodness for that, huh?

but Britain sure seems to have lost.

Lost what? Are you sure you are not confusing the UK with *France*? Now
France *did* lose, just like Germany eventually lost...sorry if that all
upsets you, but them's the facts.

Brooks


Keith

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message ...
"Tuollaf43" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
The US postwar history:


Facts arent your strong point are they ?

Korea: stalemate

South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK
and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the
DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making.

Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate

Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

And the Jupiters from Turkey as Russia demanded, along with assurances
that US would not invade Cuba. Stalemate.

Older missiles already planned for removal--we had a new program coming
online about that time which you may have heard of...Polaris? We also
removed the Thors from the UK at about the same time, and for the same
reasons--they were liquid fueled and had been made superfluous.

Are you disputing the fact that missiles in turkey were removed on the
insistence of the soviets? Then you are utterly wrong.

The fact that the removed system was obsolete and due for removal
anyway is immaterial. All you can claim is that the soviets could have
bartered de-nuclearization of Cuba for some more useful concession -
not that there was no concession.


snip

Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama
escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure.

Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups

Terrorists out, drug lords in. And I suppose all those reports of
Taliban resurgence in the Pashtun areas are all propaganda.

Uhmmm... the key at this point is,as Keith pointed out, it is no longer
serving as an open bazaar and training ground for terrorists--

If Taliban comes, can Osama be far behind?

and that a few
other nations took note and became a bit less receptive of other terrorist
operations.

This is undoubtedly true. And certainly a good achievement.


snip


Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined

LOL! Tell us more.

Uhmmm...the total population of Germany in 1940 was some 80 million, the US
population was about 130 million, with the top four states (NY, PA, TX, CA)
only accounting for some 34 million--so you can run the numbers further if
you like, but it appears Keith's statement is in fact correct.

www.ciaonet.org/book/schweller/appendix.html


and controlled the combined industries of western europe
and couldnt even beat Britain.

Before the War Germany was a major (but not predominant) power in
Europe. Today it still is a major (but not predominant) power in
Europe.

Thank goodness for the Marshall Plan, huh?

Before the war Britain was a major world power with a globe
spanning empire - today it is a mere lackey to the US.

That's not correct. The UK remains an independent nation;

There are degrees of independence. And I never said UK is not
independence, merely a US lackey.

that it has
happened to agree with the US in more cases than it disagrees is as much a
product of common values than anything else.

ummm. I dare say you could be right. Both seem to value oil over life,
propaganda over facts.

Reading anything further into
it merely indicates a degree of paranoia on your part.

Perhaps reading anything less indicateds a degree of myopia on your
part?

And why in the world would anyone be afraid of the UK? Fear of US is
understandable - its rich, powerful and governed by a mad hatter. But
why would US+UK be particularly more frightful. It is like arguing
that you are afraid of the gorilla because a chipmunk is backing it
up.


Germany might
not have won,

No, there is no doubt--she did not win. Thank goodness for that, huh?

You feel very grateful, perhaps with cause. I dont have any particular
reason to feel happy or unhappy about the German loss. To me it is a
story of distant land in a distant time. Personally it is as
emotionally immediate to me as Napoleans loss in Russia or Roman
razing of Carthage; I dont grit my teeth at massacres of the
assyrians, the golden horde, nazis or the bomber command. It is just
sad but engrossing history to me.

I have seen sufficient bad stuff in my own life time - I dont need to
weep for generations long past. Learning from them is enough.

Despite the untold tragedy and suffering the second world war wrought,
there is atleast one shining bright point about that whole tragic
affair. Thanks in large measure to Hitler and Roosevelt, the British
Empire is now history.

BTW I wonder when colonialism will be history.


but Britain sure seems to have lost.

Lost what? Are you sure you are not confusing the UK with *France*?

I am talking about the fortunes of nations on a larger scale, not
battles and wars. Think big (if at all possible).

France was crushed in the first world war. It is yet to recover from
that beating.

UK was smashed in the second world war, not as badly as france, but
smashed non the less.


Now
France *did* lose, just like Germany eventually lost...

Indeed Germany lost. But it seemed to have bounced back pretty much to
the same stature it had before the war. Cant say the same for France
or UK can you?

sorry if that all
upsets you, but them's the facts.

So nice of you to be concerned about my happiness Grofaz. Thanks.


Brooks


Keith