tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Jul 11, 4:01*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jul 11, 2:38*pm, wrote:

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...bowca-w-nowym-.......

I doubt we can learn anythng from it without knowing the circustances
of the crash. *Did they spin in? *Did they land under control in an
unlandable area? *Something else?

The instructor should be sure the turn back can be accomplished safely
considering wind, altitude, and distance from the airport. *In your
case it seems his judgement was ok.

Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

On Jul 11, 11:01*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Jul 11, 4:01*pm, Andy wrote:









On Jul 11, 2:38*pm, wrote:

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...bowca-w-nowym-.......

I doubt we can learn anythng from it without knowing the circustances
of the crash. *Did they spin in? *Did they land under control in an
unlandable area? *Something else?

The instructor should be sure the turn back can be accomplished safely
considering wind, altitude, and distance from the airport. *In your
case it seems his judgement was ok.

Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. *The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. *It's been reported that
it was gusty. *The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. *The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. *It's been reported that
it was gusty. *The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. 2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

On Jul 12, 11:10*am, Berry wrote:
Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. *My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. *2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

Was about to post the same thing. Was pondering this very issue
whilst giving 2-32 rides for the local FBO this weekend. I don't
think I'd even contemplate a return to the runway from less than 300
feet in that bird at max gross unless we had TONS of extra
airspeed. As mentioned elswhere, there are so many variables to
this that each flight requires its own plan.

P3

On Jul 12, 12:03*pm, Papa3 wrote:
On Jul 12, 11:10*am, Berry wrote:









Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. *My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. *2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

Was about to post the same thing. * *Was pondering this very issue
whilst giving 2-32 rides for the local FBO this weekend. * *I don't
think I'd even contemplate a return to the runway from less than 300
feet in that bird at max gross unless we had TONS of extra
airspeed. * *As mentioned elswhere, there are so many variables to
this that each flight requires its own plan.

P3

Several years ago I had PTT at around 200ft while giving a ride in a
2-32. No problem making a smooth steep turn back and rolling back to
the start point. The old beast keeps energy well (it should!) so as
long as you don't waste time, and don't stall in the turn (you'll only
do that once down low in a 2-32...) it's not bad.

It helps to have smart tow pilots who tow nice and fast - there was
absolutely no need to lower the nose!

Do the math about turn rate vs sink rate - 200' is more a
psychological barrier. Practice in a sim helps here, since you can
play "what ifs" and see the results.

Best glider Schweizer ever made, IMO.

Kirk
66

On Jul 13, 7:21*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Jul 12, 12:03*pm, Papa3 wrote:









On Jul 12, 11:10*am, Berry wrote:

Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. *My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. *2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

Was about to post the same thing. * *Was pondering this very issue
whilst giving 2-32 rides for the local FBO this weekend. * *I don't
think I'd even contemplate a return to the runway from less than 300
feet in that bird at max gross unless we had TONS of extra
airspeed. * *As mentioned elswhere, there are so many variables to
this that each flight requires its own plan.

P3

Several years ago I had PTT at around 200ft while giving a ride in a
2-32. *No problem making a smooth steep turn back and rolling back to
the start point. *The old beast keeps energy well (it should!) so as
long as you don't waste time, and don't stall in the turn (you'll only
do that once down low in a 2-32...) it's not bad.

It helps to have smart tow pilots who tow nice and fast - there was
absolutely no need to lower the nose!

Do the math about turn rate vs sink rate - 200' is more a
psychological barrier. *Practice in a sim helps here, since you can
play "what ifs" and see the results.

Best glider Schweizer ever made, IMO.

Kirk
66

BTDT. IIRC the 2-32's front seat occupant was a Delta captain. At
~200 AGL it went like this... What's this gizmo do? Bang! Ooops!

On Jul 12, 9:10*am, Berry wrote:
Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. *My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. *2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

Second hand unattributed report received that eye witnesses (no
comment on whether trained or untrained eyes) said the 2-32 appeared
to pitch nearly vertical after tow release, rolled 270 and went
straight in, so not what we'd normally envision. As the 2-32 has the
all flying stabilator, there are questions about the power of the trim.

On Jul 13, 11:37*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Jul 12, 9:10*am, Berry wrote:









Andy

The pilot that was fatally injured was reportedly a CFIG. The pilot
that was seriously injured was a glider DPE. It's been reported that
it was gusty. The commercial operation was in its first year of
operation from this airfield, which I'm told is tight and tree-lined.
No other info.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post. *My comments are in response to the
Montana accident of last Friday.

Frank Whiteley

Low altitude maneuvers in gusty conditions in a 2-32. Gives me chills to
think of it. *2-32's are fun to fly but they are unforgiving b-stards if
you get low and slow.

Both the accidents being discussed involved gliders with reputations for
spinning in.

Second hand unattributed report received that eye witnesses (no
comment on whether trained or untrained eyes) said the 2-32 appeared
to pitch nearly vertical after tow release, rolled 270 and went
straight in, so not what we'd normally envision. *As the 2-32 has the
all flying stabilator, there are questions about the power of the trim.

If it's functioning correctly, the 2-32 trim is powerful, precise and
easy to use. However, like the rest of the glider, the trim system
needs regular servicing and lubrication. I've encountered some really
stiff 2-32 trim systems.

While I agree the 2-33 was the best glider Schweizer every built, they
are getting very old and need a lot of TLC.

While I agree the 2-33 was the best glider Schweizer every built, they
are getting very old and need a lot of TLC.

Bill! You do know that I'm going to save this and keep it for future
use In fact I might just get this quote printed and framed.

On Jul 13, 1:14*pm, Tony wrote:
While I agree the 2-33 was the best glider Schweizer every built, they
are getting very old and need a lot of TLC.

Bill! *You do know that I'm going to save this and keep it for future
use *In fact I might just get this quote printed and framed.

Damn, one little number...