Aviation Oxygen Locations in Chicago Area?

On Jul 12, 7:51*pm, ContestID67 wrote:
Go to your local welding supplier. *The oxygen is just the same as you
get from an FBO and a fraction of the price.

Andy

I don't believe that it can be welders oxygen. *It can't even be
medical oxygen. *It must be "Gaseous aviator’s breathing" (AVB)
oxygen. *I read it has to do with the moisture content to prevent
freezing. *True?

It there an FAA regulation on this? *I can't find it.

Some info herehttp://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/Oxygen_Eq....

As Bill states, this is completely wrong. Its an old wives tale that
has been repeated here before and I've tried to shoot it down then as
well. I have some background in low-temperature physics/cryogenics
research so let me play whack-a-mole with this.

Oxygen is manufactured by fractional distillation of liquid air (the
Linde process). This generates highly pure oxygen. This produces an
inherently dry gas product. The same liquid oxygen is boiled off and
packaged as compressed oxygen for welding, aviation, medical, other
industrial and scientific applications. All the handling system for
these cryogenic liquids and gasses are very very clean for saftey
reasons.

None, nada, zilch of these end-use gasses have moisture added to them.
Compressed oxygen is a dangerous oxidizer. You would be beyond insane
to want to introduce moisture and resultant corrosion problems to a
compressed oxygen storage system. And under high pressure the moisture
would condense out. Expensive compressors and other equipment would be
damaged by this liquid condensation. Adiabatic cooling as the gas is
release through valves and regulators would cause condensation--if
there was moisture in aviators breathing oxygen regulators and flow
meters etc. could freeze up at cold temperatures found at altitude. It
just makes absolutely no sense to imagine any addition of moisture to
the compressed gas for any purpose. What seems to be the source of
this confusion is medical applications where water is vaporized and
added to the dry gas or the dry gas is bubbled through water etc. at
delivery time--all done at very low pressure.

So can we bury this one please?

Darryl

On Jul 12, 9:11*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

So can we bury this one please?

Darryl

You may have to talk to someone at FAA. The link provided by the OP
includes this:

"Aviator’s
oxygen must meet certain standards to ensure that it is safe to be
taken to altitude. Only
aviator’s-grade breathing oxygen meets this specification. Neither
medical grade nor
industrial grade oxygen is safe to substitute because they do not meet
the same stringent
standards as ABO."

Of course it's been said many times in many places that this just
isn't true but FAA does seem to want to keep up the illusion. Maybe
their concern is that someone will top off with some other gas, such
as nitrogen which is available at many FBOs, if they don't insist on
ABO labeling.

Andy

On Jul 13, 6:31*am, Andy wrote:
On Jul 12, 9:11*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

So can we bury this one please?

Darryl

You may have to talk to someone at FAA. *The link provided by the OP
includes this:

"Aviator’s
oxygen must meet certain standards to ensure that it is safe to be
taken to altitude. Only
aviator’s-grade breathing oxygen meets this specification. Neither
medical grade nor
industrial grade oxygen is safe to substitute because they do not meet
the same stringent
standards as ABO."

Of course it's been said many times in many places that this just
isn't true but FAA does seem to want to keep up the illusion. *Maybe
their concern is that someone will top off with some other gas, such
as nitrogen which is available at many FBOs, if they don't insist on
ABO labeling.

Andy

No thanks I don't want to talk to anybody at the FAA about this. The
claims are just not correct for all practical purposes. The comment
may be referring to other manufacturing processes used sometimes for
some low-purity industrial oxygen (which you could not buy if you
tried). But the stuff that goes out into the supply chain for welding,
medical, aviation etc. applications is all sourced from Linde
processing and is highly pure. As Richard says it comes from the same
big container - go talk with your gas supplier (but some naturally
won't want to sell you welding O2 if you tell them its for
aviation...).

Mixup or contamination of any oxygen source is a potential risk. Since
the same suppliers are handling the bottles I don't see one as as
safer than the other. For whatever use the cylinders better be clearly
labeled as O2.

Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
knows when, etc...

Darryl

On Jul 13, 9:39*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 13, 6:31*am, Andy wrote:





On Jul 12, 9:11*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

So can we bury this one please?

Darryl

You may have to talk to someone at FAA. *The link provided by the OP
includes this:

"Aviator’s
oxygen must meet certain standards to ensure that it is safe to be
taken to altitude. Only
aviator’s-grade breathing oxygen meets this specification. Neither
medical grade nor
industrial grade oxygen is safe to substitute because they do not meet
the same stringent
standards as ABO."

Of course it's been said many times in many places that this just
isn't true but FAA does seem to want to keep up the illusion. *Maybe
their concern is that someone will top off with some other gas, such
as nitrogen which is available at many FBOs, if they don't insist on
ABO labeling.

Andy

No thanks I don't want to talk to anybody at the FAA about this. The
claims are just not correct for all practical purposes. The comment
may be referring to other manufacturing processes used sometimes for
some low-purity industrial oxygen (which you could not buy if you
tried). But the stuff that goes out into the supply chain for welding,
medical, aviation etc. applications is all sourced from Linde
processing and is highly pure. As Richard says it comes from the same
big container - go talk with your gas supplier (but some naturally
won't want to sell you welding O2 if you tell them its for
aviation...).

Mixup or contamination of any oxygen source is a potential risk. Since
the same suppliers are handling the bottles I don't see one as as
safer than the other. For whatever use the cylinders better be clearly
labeled as O2.

Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
knows when, etc...

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

www.c-f-c.com/supportdocs/abo1.htm

Above link is very educational.

On Jul 13, 12:39 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
knows when, etc...

I'd welcome some discussion on the topics you mention. That would fill
a real need for pilots like myself who don't often use oxygen.

One thing I'm curious about is the hydrotesting requirement. If one of
the legendary arguments for using "aviation" oxygen is its low
moisture content (debunked above), then:

1. how is water completely removed from a cylinder after
hydrotesting, and
2. how can a user be assured that no corrosion will be created in his
cylinder as a result of hydrotesting?

-John

On Jul 13, 11:51Â*am, jcarlyle wrote:
On Jul 13, 12:39 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
knows when, etc...

I'd welcome some discussion on the topics you mention. That would fill
a real need for pilots like myself who don't often use oxygen.

One thing I'm curious about is the hydrotesting requirement. If one of
the legendary arguments for using "aviation" oxygen is its low
moisture content (debunked above), then:


From talking with a hydrotesting shop owner as I waited for a bottle
to be serviced.

1. Â*how is water completely removed from a cylinder after
hydrotesting, andl

They evacuate the bottle to a high vacuum while mildly heating it.

2. Â*how can a user be assured that no corrosion will be created in his
cylinder as a result of hydrotesting?

The bottle is borescoped after hydrotesting with the valve removed.

BTW, I think Mythbusters had a program on what happens if you break
the valve off a high pressure cylinder. IIRC, reality didn't quite
live up to the urban myths.

Here's a deeper explanation of stamp codes.

Oxygen cylinders are marked to designate the type of cylinder, maximum
fill pressure, hydrostatic test date, inspector, manufacturer, and
serial number. The marking are normally stamped into the shoulder of
the cylinder. The hydrostatic test date and inspector mark indicate
when the cylinder was last tested and who tested the cylinder. Most
oxygen cylinders are required to be tested every 5 years. This test
ensures the cylinder can safety hold the maximum fill pressure. There
are two other markings which are sometimes found on these cylinders.
The plus (+) sign located after the test date designates that the
cylinder can be filled to 10% above the pressure stamped on the
cylinder. The five-pointed star in the same location designates that
the hydrostatic test date has been extended an additional 5 years. A
cylinder with a five-pointed star would need to be tested every 10
years.

Vertical Alignment:
DOT-3AA 2015
1234567
XY Corp
8 ® 08 + ۞

Horizontal Alignment:
DOT-3AA 2015 1234567 XY Corp 8 ® 08 + ۞
DOT = Department of Transportation
3AA = Seamless alloy-steel cylinder
2015 = 2015 psig fill pressure
1234567 = Serial number of cylinder
XY Corp = Manufacture of cylinder
8 ® 08 = Month and Year, in this example, August 2008, the symbol of
the inspector is commonly placed between month and year (® used as
example only)
+ = Cylinder maximum fill pressure can be 10% above 2015 psig or
2216.5 psig
Ûž = Cylinder may be tested every 10 years versus the standard 5 years

On Jul 13, 11:37*am, Bill D wrote:
On Jul 13, 11:51*am, jcarlyle wrote:

On Jul 13, 12:39 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
knows when, etc...

I'd welcome some discussion on the topics you mention. That would fill
a real need for pilots like myself who don't often use oxygen.

One thing I'm curious about is the hydrotesting requirement. If one of
the legendary arguments for using "aviation" oxygen is its low
moisture content (debunked above), then:

From talking with a hydrotesting shop owner as I waited for a bottle
to be serviced.

1. *how is water completely removed from a cylinder after
hydrotesting, andl

They evacuate the bottle to a high vacuum while mildly heating it.


Yes pumping is another way, I am not sure I wonder if more places have
drying blowers than vacuum pumps. BTW its just a vacuum--a high vacuum
has as specific meaning (mean free path of the gas molecules approach
the size of the object) and most places just would not have the fancy
diffusion or other pumps or staff skills/training needed to pump down
to a high-vacuum.

Darryl

Bill D wrote:
BTW, I think Mythbusters had a program on what happens if you break
the valve off a high pressure cylinder. IIRC, reality didn't quite
live up to the urban myths.

Actually, it did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEJGNLTo84

On Jul 15, 2:02*am, John Smith wrote:
Bill D wrote:
BTW, I think Mythbusters had a program on what happens if you break
the valve off a high pressure cylinder. *IIRC, reality didn't quite
live up to the urban myths.

Actually, it did:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEJGNLTo84

I've been eyewitness to a forklift knocking down a pallet of cardboard
boxes containing 6 x 2l Coke bottles. Several of the bottles went more
than 100m across the ground. (most just bounced harmlessly)

On 15/07/2011 00:02, John Smith wrote:
Bill D wrote:
BTW, I think Mythbusters had a program on what happens if you break
the valve off a high pressure cylinder. IIRC, reality didn't quite
live up to the urban myths.

Actually, it did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEJGNLTo84

....and I know the fairing is composite but it also made a 5ft x 4ft hole
in the 747's pressure hull after going through the main cabin floor twice.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...122-183aj.html

GC