The rudder waggle signal does not work

On Jul 22, 10:41*am, T8 wrote:
On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D wrote:

On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy wrote:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

Thread winner, right there.

-T8

No one argue against practice, but against a signal which does not
work in most cases and kills people. Yes, part of the solution is to
practice everything over and over again, perhaps every flight instead
of doing actual soaring, but why not use better methods to adress this
situation, such as radios? Every tow plane and every glider should
have an operating radio.
And if a radio call is not solving the problem, continue towing to a
safe altitude before giving a signal. In most situations a tow plane
can continue climbing slowly even with open spoilers. If this is not
the case, it is probably a real emergency and there may not be enough
time even for a signal.

Ramy

On Jul 22, 1:56*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 22, 10:41*am, T8 wrote:

On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D wrote:

On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy wrote:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

Thread winner, right there.

-T8

No one argue against practice, but against a signal which does not
work in most cases and kills people. Yes, part of the solution is to
practice everything over and over again, perhaps every flight instead
of doing actual soaring, but why not use better methods to adress this
situation, such as radios? Every tow plane and every glider should
have an operating radio.
And if a radio call is not solving the problem, continue towing to a
safe altitude before giving a signal. In most situations a tow plane
can continue climbing slowly even with open spoilers. If this is not
the case, it is probably a real emergency and there may not be enough
time even for a signal.

Ramy

The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. If the
human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
signal's fault. If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?

I can't understand Japanese. That doesn't mean Japanese is an
unworkable language, it just means I can't understand it.
Fortunately, so far, my life hasn't depended on understanding
Japanese. My life certainly can depend on understanding the rudder
wag so I damn well understand it.

The real mystery, in fact the only mystery, is why anyone would pilot
a glider when they don't understand a life saving signal.

On Jul 22, 1:36*pm, Bill D wrote:
On Jul 22, 1:56*pm, Ramy wrote:





On Jul 22, 10:41*am, T8 wrote:

On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D wrote:

On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy wrote:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

Thread winner, right there.

-T8

No one argue against practice, but against a signal which does not
work in most cases and kills people. Yes, part of the solution is to
practice everything over and over again, perhaps every flight instead
of doing actual soaring, but why not use better methods to adress this
situation, such as radios? Every tow plane and every glider should
have an operating radio.
And if a radio call is not solving the problem, continue towing to a
safe altitude before giving a signal. In most situations a tow plane
can continue climbing slowly even with open spoilers. If this is not
the case, it is probably a real emergency and there may not be enough
time even for a signal.

Ramy

The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. *If the
human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
signal's fault. *If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?

I can't understand Japanese. *That doesn't mean Japanese is an
unworkable language, it just means I can't understand it.
Fortunately, so far, my life hasn't depended on understanding
Japanese. *My life certainly can depend on understanding the rudder
wag so I damn well understand it.

The real mystery, in fact the only mystery, *is why anyone would pilot
a glider when they don't understand a life saving signal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Perhaps you are perfect, but most of us are human, and human makes
mistakes with confusing signals under a stressfull situation.
The statistics confirms that.
Following your example, we don't use Japanese when talking on the
radio (in the US), although there is nothing wrong with Japanese,
right?
IMHO, those who believe that they are safe since they practice and
never make mistakes are at the highest risk of accidents.

Ramy

"Dan Marotta" wrote in message
...
So... What would you have the tow pilot do, release the glider or, possibly,
crash into the trees? Either way, the glider is down.

Require radios and use them. Compared to gliders, they are dirt cheap.


I've been away from soaring for 9 of the previous 10 years, but it's my
recollection that the rudder wag was not an official signal - only a
suggestion. Maybe it should be made an official signal and tested on BFRs and
check rides.

It's been a few years since I was an active CFIG, but we tested the rudder
waggle on every flight review. I don't recall anyone failing to release when
they got the waggle except for a few cases when they were briefed immediately
before the flight.. As far as I can see, the signal is well intended, but a
complete failure.

Vaughn

The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. *If the
human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
signal's fault. *If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?

Over the years the rudder wag has been used to relay many things.I
once tried to steer a tow plane and got a rudder wag (meaning NO, I
will deliver you where I know the best lift can be found). For many
years, the rudder wag was used to indicate "Get off now dummy, you're
in a thermal". These little memories never go away, they are always
there hiding in little dusty corners of our minds. If you have left
the spoilers unlocked, the tow won't be going well. You know something
is wrong...................when you see a rudder wag, your memory can
pump out a bad snap reaction. This is exactly what happened to Joe at
Minden. The tow wasn't going well, he knew something was wrong and
probably suspected the tow planes engine wasn't putting out enough
power. Joe had a radio, but I suspect the battery had gone dead
sometime during the morning pattern tows. After repeatedly calling for
Joe to close his spoilers and just after clearing the wires at the end
of 30, the tow pilot gave the rudder wag. A CFI with thousands of
hours instructing, pulled the plug, turned 180 left and flew into the
wires. This accident should never have happened, but the point is, IT
DID!
How can we prevent it reaccurring?
+ Always do a com-check before every takeoff.
+ Never give the rudder wag below 1000 feet
+ Learn and use the proper signals.
My club is religious about com-checks and the tow pilot won't start
the tow until he gets a Canopy & Spoilers Closed & Locked, slack out,
JJ's ready for takeoff.

On Jul 22, 2:46*pm, "vaughn" wrote:
"Dan Marotta" wrote in message

...

So... *What would you have the tow pilot do, release the glider or, possibly,
crash into the trees? *Either way, the glider is down.

Require radios and use them. *Compared to gliders, they are dirt cheap.



I've been away from soaring for 9 of the previous 10 years, but it's my
recollection that the rudder wag was not an official signal - only a
suggestion. *Maybe it should be made an official signal and tested on BFRs and
check rides.

It's been a few years since I was an active CFIG, but we tested the rudder
waggle on every flight review. *I don't recall anyone failing to release when
they got the waggle except for a few cases when they were briefed immediately
before the flight.. *As far as I can see, the signal is well intended, but a
complete failure.

Vaughn

Uh I assume that was an unintended typo and you meant failing to
release when they got the rock-off signal?

Darryl

The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. If the
human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
signal's fault. If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?



Perhaps you are perfect, but most of us are human, and human makes
mistakes with confusing signals under a stressfull situation.
The statistics confirms that.



Ah, the eternal argument between the Moralists ("Damn it, people
shouldn't make mistakes, so we should design our systems on the
assumption that people do not make mistakes"), and the Pragmatists
("People make mistakes all the time, so our systems must be designed to
minimize mistakes and their effects").

On Jul 22, 2:53*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 22, 2:46*pm, "vaughn" wrote:





"Dan Marotta" wrote in message

...

So... *What would you have the tow pilot do, release the glider or, possibly,
crash into the trees? *Either way, the glider is down.

Require radios and use them. *Compared to gliders, they are dirt cheap.

I've been away from soaring for 9 of the previous 10 years, but it's my
recollection that the rudder wag was not an official signal - only a
suggestion. *Maybe it should be made an official signal and tested on BFRs and
check rides.

It's been a few years since I was an active CFIG, but we tested the rudder
waggle on every flight review. *I don't recall anyone failing to release when
they got the waggle except for a few cases when they were briefed immediately
before the flight.. *As far as I can see, the signal is well intended, but a
complete failure.

Vaughn

Uh I assume that was an unintended typo and you meant failing to
release when they got the rock-off signal?

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No I believe he meant that everyone released by mistake...
And this was not even under real emergency pressure.
Exactly my point.

Ramy

Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?

Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
accident from ever happening. It is the most basic of pilot
duties........


The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
up to the accident.

1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
position)
2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
sense unwanted spoiler opening
4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
spoiler check
5. Pilot should be familiar with signals


Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..

Cookie

On Jul 22, 3:49*pm, "
wrote:
Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?

Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
accident from ever happening. *It is the most basic of pilot
duties........

The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
up to the accident.

1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
position)
2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
sense unwanted spoiler opening
4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
spoiler check
5. Pilot should be familiar with signals

Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..

Cookie

I appreciate the comment, but broadening the discussion is more a
distraction to this than a help. One way of making sure something
really broken is not fixed is to keep making the problem bigger. Bad
things happen and when they do there needs to be a mechanism,
hopefully a practiced plan of action, to handle them. The causes of
these fatalities is really releasing low/in an a bad position. Fix
that problem and people won't get killed. In may cases (with powerful
enough tow planes) they might just be embarrassed and the glider pilot
ends up having to buy the tow pilot a beer that night because the tow
plane had to struggle to tow them for a while.

We all need the radio and signal procedure chain to work as
effectively as it can possibly do. That includes getting radios
properly installed in gliders and tow planes and properly using them,
tow pilots being trained to think when to most safely to use a radio
and signal followup if needed, and us community of glider pilots to
get our heads out of our collective asses on the broad lack of
proficiency with in-flight signals.

Darryl