The rudder waggle signal does not work

Hello Andreas Maurer, you wrote at 07.28.2011 03:21

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 03:06:29 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Radios reliable??? Funny, my job for today (I work for avionics
shop) is to find out what's wrong with 4 glider's radios for a local
club......

Sometimes I wonder why things that work all over the world don't seem
to work in the US... like radios in gliders.

A failed radio is pretty much unknown in the part of the world where I
live. I didn't know that German technology was that far advanced.

in which part of the german world ;-) do you live?

At my gliding club here in northern Germany we have had severeal
failures of radios in our gliders over the last years. Disconnected
speaker, stuck transmit button, electric installation failure, and so
on. None of them causing a fatality or even an accident, fortunately.

Think your statistics ain't representative ... :-)

On my airfield a radio call stopped a pilot from ruining his day twice
within the last six weeks.

Huh - the *same* pilot?

Says a lot about the pilot

[sigh] ... the same pilot ... :-/

- but he's the type of guy who would be a
typical candidate to confuse rudder waggle and release unexpectedly.

So how he managed not to misunderstand the radio calls? ;-

I agree, radios are rather reliable, but your eyes are more. And under
bad circumstances a radio call may be poorly readable, misunderstood,
.... so two simple signals (rudder wag / wing rock) should be safer. But
the accidents corresponding with them *did* occur ...

I don't have the solution. In my opinion one should:

1. give no signal before misinterpretation is not likely to be harmful
(i.E. before sufficient height is gained), whenever possible

2. if necessary, give a radio call (like "glider on tow, check your
airbrakes") /followed/ by the corresponding signal (rudder wag)

.... risk of misinterpretation should be less, then.

Just my 2 ct.

regards
Werner

On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 00:12:35 +0200, Werner Schmidt
wrote:

in which part of the german world ;-) do you live?

Landau, Pfalz.



Think your statistics ain't representative ... :-)

I think they are - ours are similar to yours:
Perhaps half a dozen of more or less serious radio failures per year
in my club. Multiplay this probability with the probability of having
to call a pilot with an important advice, and chances are pretty small
that you are not going to reach the pilot in question. In my
experience 8 out of 10 radio calls worked.


[sigh] ... the same pilot ... :-/

Yup.
This guy has got a written checklist that is half a meter long (and
comprises at least 50 items) - yet things like "airbrakes closed and
locked" or "wind direction and strength" didn't make it onto the check
list... says it all, doesn't it?


So how he managed not to misunderstand the radio calls? ;-

Clear communication. Fortunately the guys on my home airfield are
disciplined enough that only one of them yells into the radio.

He's flying a Ventus - first case of extended aerobrakes was an
aerotow behind an FK-9 (this combination doesn't really climb anymore
if the glider's airbrakes are extended), the second case was a winch
launch (lots of water on board, of course)...........


I agree, radios are rather reliable, but your eyes are more. And under
bad circumstances a radio call may be poorly readable, misunderstood,
... so two simple signals (rudder wag / wing rock) should be safer. But
the accidents corresponding with them *did* occur ...

This is what puzzles me - I had thought that these optical signs were
extremely reliable (I had even thought about introducing them in my
club)... poor training of the glider pilots?


I don't have the solution. In my opinion one should:

1. give no signal before misinterpretation is not likely to be harmful
(i.E. before sufficient height is gained), whenever possible

2. if necessary, give a radio call (like "glider on tow, check your
airbrakes") /followed/ by the corresponding signal (rudder wag)

I'm not sure about rudder wag.
A precise radio call ("Delta 7989 check your airbrakes") is probably
less prone to trigger an immediate wrong reaction of the pilot than an
optical hint like rudder wag.

We once had a pretty low release of a glider pilot because the
towplane crossed some turbulence that rocked its wings...

I guess in the end it comes down to one point: Training.


Cheers
Andreas

On Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:04:45 -0400, "vaughn"
wrote:

My guess is that our Japanese radios work just as well as your Japanese radios.



Following the discussion here I get doubts, I have to admit.


Andreas

On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 02:07:40 +0200, Andreas Maurer wrote:

We once had a pretty low release of a glider pilot because the towplane
crossed some turbulence that rocked its wings...

One of our instructors once told me to notice the tow plane's ailerons:
If they're using full deflection its a wing rock, so release, but if
they're not it may just be turbulence.

I guess in the end it comes down to one point: Training.

Agreed.

BTW, both wing rocking (release now) and rudder waggle (check airbrakes)
are in both the BGA Rules & Laws and the BGA Instructors manual and so
are taught uniformly throughout the UK, along with a third signal: a
glider that can't release flies out to the left as far as possible so
the tuggie can see him and rocks his wings, rolling left then right to
avoid sliding in.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

How about "Glider on tow, your spoilers are open!"

Hard to screw that up! Even if there were 4 gliders on tow, all of
them checking their spoilers would be a good thing, right?

ok, seriously, just one question.

when the radio call fails, for whatever probable reason including task
loading, what is the next signal to tell the glider pilot the spoilers are
open?

let me guess, a rudder waggle? uh oh!

How about "Glider on tow, your spoilers are open!"

Hard to screw that up! Even if there were 4 gliders on tow, all of
them checking their spoilers would be a good thing, right?

Did not copy, 1-26 very noisy say again?

On Jul 27, 9:21*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 03:06:29 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
Radios reliable??? * Funny, my job for today *(I work for avionics
shop) * is to find out what's wrong with 4 glider's radios for a local
club......

Sometimes I wonder why things that work all over the world don't seem
to work in the US... like radios in gliders.

A failed radio is pretty much unknown in the part of the world where I
live. I didn't know that German technology was that far advanced.

On my airfield a radio call stopped a pilot from ruining his day twice
within the last six weeks.
Says a lot about the pilot - but he's the type of guy who would be a
typical candidate to confuse rudder waggle and release unexpectedly.

Cheers
Andreas

Two or more pilots, on working radios talking at the same
time....."stepped on"...will cause nobody to hear
transmission....happens all the time...

I know onw glider port where a particular tow pilot gives a running
play by play of everything that is happening every where around the
field.....he never stops talking....you cannot get in a word
edgewise....

Signal has non of these issues...


Cookie
Cookie

Ok.....let's look at this another way...

The accident with the slingsby....what caused this accident?

1. Take off with spoiler open
2. Lack of radio
3. other, neither, or both

Cookie

On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 04:40:40 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Two or more pilots, on working radios talking at the same
time....."stepped on"...will cause nobody to hear
transmission....happens all the time...

I would agree if I had experienced this - but in my experience nearly
all of the really important radio messages were understood by the
glider pilot (any we are flying on a pretty busy glider airport).



I know onw glider port where a particular tow pilot gives a running
play by play of everything that is happening every where around the
field.....he never stops talking....you cannot get in a word
edgewise....

Incredibly poor airmanship - how come that noone ever told him to shut
up in a way that this guy ought to understand the message?

How could an instructor talk to his solo student pilot if such a guy
is blocking the frequency?


Signal has non of these issues...

Well... watching this discussion it obviously has other issues...

Best wishes
Andreas

On Jul 28, 6:33*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

One of our instructors once told me to notice the tow plane's ailerons:
If they're using full deflection its a wing rock, so release, but if
they're not it may just be turbulence.


That may work in UK but it would be bad advice in Arizona where it's
not uncommon to need full aileron deflection to keep the tug right
side up. If looking at the ailerons maybe be better to check if the
aileron is in the sense to cause the roll or to counter it. I doubt
many glider pilots are going to process that information though.

Andy