IDAHO FATALITY

On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

Originally Posted by Frank Whiteley

On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE State: ID Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID (NM11) Entry date: 08/19/2011

Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Walt

On 8/20/2011 7:02 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:
Frank Whiteley;781006 Wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:-
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!-

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.


IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB
BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE State: ID Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID (NM11) Entry date: 08/19/2011


Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have
much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Nor - I've little doubt - do most interested readers of the NTSB database. My
working conclusion is, historically the vast majority of NTSB glider
investigations state the obvious, while lacking any ability to place the
obvious into any sensible context. Donning my Great Karnak hat, this
fatality's Probable Cause will likely read: Failure to maintain airspeed and
control for unknown reasons.

And at that, my supposition may well err on the wide of 'too much
context'...time will tell.

However, savvy NTSB-database-reading glider pilots can still make their own
inferential, context-based conclusions from NTSB data. In fact, they *should*
do so, if they're interested in maximizing their chances of not eventually
becoming a read-about incident or accident in the database.

Bob W.

On Aug 21, 6:23*am, BobW wrote:
On 8/20/2011 7:02 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:





Frank Whiteley;781006 Wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:-
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!-

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y * * * *Make/Model: EXP * * * Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB
BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 * * Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident * Highest Injury: Fatal * * Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE * State: ID * Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA * * *Total Fatal: * 1
# Crew: * 1 * * Fat: * 1 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Pass: * 0 * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Grnd: * * * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown * * *Phase: Unknown * * *Operation: OTHER

FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID *(NM11) * * * * * * * * * * Entry date: 08/19/2011

Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have
much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Nor - I've little doubt - do most interested readers of the NTSB database.. My
working conclusion is, historically the vast majority of NTSB glider
investigations state the obvious, while lacking any ability to place the
obvious into any sensible context. Donning my Great Karnak hat, this
fatality's Probable Cause will likely read: Failure to maintain airspeed and
control for unknown reasons.

And at that, my supposition may well err on the wide of 'too much
context'...time will tell.

However, savvy NTSB-database-reading glider pilots can still make their own
inferential, context-based conclusions from NTSB data. In fact, they *should*
do so, if they're interested in maximizing their chances of not eventually
becoming a read-about incident or accident in the database.

Bob W.

Precisely, and this is why we should encourage speculation rather than
'wait for the NTSB report'.
And I'll start by saying that from a second hand report this was a
spin of the top of a (not so) high speed pass.
I for one will think twice before attempting a high speed low pass
again especially if i am not 100% sure I'll be able to build enough
speed.
This had been another terrible year for glider accidents and it is
tragic to loose so many but we should all try to learn as much as
possible from every accident to increase our safety.

Ramy

On Aug 21, 7:54*am, Ramy wrote:
On Aug 21, 6:23*am, BobW wrote:





On 8/20/2011 7:02 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:

Frank Whiteley;781006 Wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:-
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!-

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y * * * *Make/Model: EXP * * * Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB
BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 * * Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident * Highest Injury: Fatal * * Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE * State: ID * Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA * * *Total Fatal: * 1
# Crew: * 1 * * Fat: * 1 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Pass: * 0 * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Grnd: * * * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown * * *Phase: Unknown * * *Operation: OTHER

FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID *(NM11) * * * * * * * * * * Entry date: 08/19/2011

Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have
much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Nor - I've little doubt - do most interested readers of the NTSB database. My
working conclusion is, historically the vast majority of NTSB glider
investigations state the obvious, while lacking any ability to place the
obvious into any sensible context. Donning my Great Karnak hat, this
fatality's Probable Cause will likely read: Failure to maintain airspeed and
control for unknown reasons.

And at that, my supposition may well err on the wide of 'too much
context'...time will tell.

However, savvy NTSB-database-reading glider pilots can still make their own
inferential, context-based conclusions from NTSB data. In fact, they *should*
do so, if they're interested in maximizing their chances of not eventually
becoming a read-about incident or accident in the database.

Bob W.

Precisely, and this is why we should encourage speculation rather than
'wait for the NTSB report'.
And I'll start by saying that from a second hand report this was a
spin of the top of a (not so) high speed pass.
I for one will think twice before attempting a high speed low pass
again especially if i am not 100% sure I'll be able to build enough
speed.
This had been another terrible year for glider accidents and it is
tragic to loose so many but we should all try to learn as much as
possible from every accident to increase our safety.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was there and Ramy is right. Why he had done the pass is the big
mystery.

He may have ben low coming in and didn't want to do a downwind landing
in 10-12k winds.

We may never know, but it is a tragedy, and my or may not have been
preventable.

Let's fly safe out there.

BTW, I completely agree with using the RADIO to convey information vs.
the old-fashioned and ambigous waggle signals, and won't fly at an
airport that doesn't have radios in the tow planes.

Wayne

On Aug 21, 12:21*pm, Free Flight 107 wrote:
On Aug 21, 7:54*am, Ramy wrote:





On Aug 21, 6:23*am, BobW wrote:

On 8/20/2011 7:02 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:

Frank Whiteley;781006 Wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:-
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!-

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y * * * *Make/Model: EXP * * * Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB
BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 * * Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident * Highest Injury: Fatal * * Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE * State: ID * Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA * * *Total Fatal: * 1
# Crew: * 1 * * Fat: * 1 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Pass: * 0 * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Grnd: * * * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown * * *Phase: Unknown * * *Operation: OTHER

FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID *(NM11) * * * * * * * * * * Entry date: 08/19/2011

Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have
much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Nor - I've little doubt - do most interested readers of the NTSB database. My
working conclusion is, historically the vast majority of NTSB glider
investigations state the obvious, while lacking any ability to place the
obvious into any sensible context. Donning my Great Karnak hat, this
fatality's Probable Cause will likely read: Failure to maintain airspeed and
control for unknown reasons.

And at that, my supposition may well err on the wide of 'too much
context'...time will tell.

However, savvy NTSB-database-reading glider pilots can still make their own
inferential, context-based conclusions from NTSB data. In fact, they *should*
do so, if they're interested in maximizing their chances of not eventually
becoming a read-about incident or accident in the database.

Bob W.

Precisely, and this is why we should encourage speculation rather than
'wait for the NTSB report'.
And I'll start by saying that from a second hand report this was a
spin of the top of a (not so) high speed pass.
I for one will think twice before attempting a high speed low pass
again especially if i am not 100% sure I'll be able to build enough
speed.
This had been another terrible year for glider accidents and it is
tragic to loose so many but we should all try to learn as much as
possible from every accident to increase our safety.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was there and Ramy is right. Why he had done the pass is the big
mystery.

He may have ben low coming in and didn't want to do a downwind landing
in 10-12k winds.

We may never know, but it is a tragedy, and my or may not have been
preventable.

Let's fly safe out there.

BTW, I completely agree with using the RADIO to convey information vs.
the old-fashioned and ambigous waggle signals, and won't fly at an
airport that doesn't have radios in the tow planes.

Wayne- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of course this accident was preventable!!

Cookie

Wayne wrote.........
I was there and Ramy is right. Why he had done the pass is the big
mystery.

It's no mystery to me, he did a low pass because that's what the big
guys do. Same thing happened at Tehachapi a few years back, also in a
BG-12. Returning to the field with excess altitude, the kid thought
he'd do what he had seen the big guys do, so many times. He made his
low pass then pulled on some flaps to slow her down (while still going
fast). One hinge failed and a flap ripped out taking some of the drag
spar with it. With a damaged drag spar, the wing twisted and seperated
from the aircraft. His Dad who had just bought the ship for his son,
watched it all.
There was a time (20 years ago) when the only way to finished the race
was with a low pass to the finish line. GPS has made the low pass no
longer necessary and the clock can be stopped when entering the finish
cylinder at 1 mile and 500 feet. At Parowan last year, I called 4
miles out, then 'finish' as I passed the 1 mile finish circle, then
called entering the pattern. As I was rolling out a shadow suddenly
came over me as another sailplane passed right over me. I thought for
a second that he was trying to land in front of me. No, just another
hot-shot doing an unnecessary low pass (aka buzz-job) then pulled up
into a crowded pattern, without saying a word on the radio.
RC are you listening? Its time to ban any low pass when a finish
cylinder is in use and require an "entering the pattern" call from
everyone.
If I had my way, the line finish and the 50 foot low pass to the line
would be dropped and only the finish cylinder authorized in the rules.
Flame suit on,
JJ

On Aug 21, 2:03*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Wayne wrote.........
I was there and Ramy is right. Why he had done the pass is the big
mystery.

It's no mystery to me, he did a low pass because that's what the big
guys do. Same thing happened at Tehachapi a few years back, also in a
BG-12. Returning to the field with excess altitude, the kid thought
he'd do what he had seen the big guys do, so many times. He made his
low pass then pulled on some flaps to slow her down (while still going
fast). One hinge failed and a flap ripped out taking some of the drag
spar with it. With a damaged drag spar, the wing twisted and seperated
from the aircraft. His Dad who had just bought the ship for his son,
watched it all.
There was a time (20 years ago) when the only way to finished the race
was with a low pass to the finish line. GPS has made the low pass no
longer necessary and the clock can be stopped when entering the finish
cylinder at 1 mile and 500 feet. At Parowan last year, I called 4
miles out, then 'finish' as I passed the 1 mile finish circle, then
called entering the pattern. As I was rolling out a shadow suddenly
came over me as another sailplane passed right over me. I thought for
a second that he was trying to land in front of me. No, just another
hot-shot doing an unnecessary low pass (aka buzz-job) then pulled up
into a crowded pattern, without saying a word on the radio.
RC are you listening? Its time to ban any low pass when a finish
cylinder is in use and require an "entering the pattern" call from
everyone.
*If I had my way, the line finish and the 50 foot low pass to the line
would be dropped and only the finish cylinder authorized in the rules.
Flame suit on,
JJ

Totally agree with JJ, I learned from other's mistakes and my own
analysis of hazards and quit doing low passes many, many years ago,

NK

On Aug 21, 5:03*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Wayne wrote.........
I was there and Ramy is right. Why he had done the pass is the big
mystery.

It's no mystery to me, he did a low pass because that's what the big
guys do. Same thing happened at Tehachapi a few years back, also in a
BG-12. Returning to the field with excess altitude, the kid thought
he'd do what he had seen the big guys do, so many times. He made his
low pass then pulled on some flaps to slow her down (while still going
fast). One hinge failed and a flap ripped out taking some of the drag
spar with it. With a damaged drag spar, the wing twisted and seperated
from the aircraft. His Dad who had just bought the ship for his son,
watched it all.
There was a time (20 years ago) when the only way to finished the race
was with a low pass to the finish line. GPS has made the low pass no
longer necessary and the clock can be stopped when entering the finish
cylinder at 1 mile and 500 feet. At Parowan last year, I called 4
miles out, then 'finish' as I passed the 1 mile finish circle, then
called entering the pattern. As I was rolling out a shadow suddenly
came over me as another sailplane passed right over me. I thought for
a second that he was trying to land in front of me. No, just another
hot-shot doing an unnecessary low pass (aka buzz-job) then pulled up
into a crowded pattern, without saying a word on the radio.
RC are you listening? Its time to ban any low pass when a finish
cylinder is in use and require an "entering the pattern" call from
everyone.
*If I had my way, the line finish and the 50 foot low pass to the line
would be dropped and only the finish cylinder authorized in the rules.
Flame suit on,
JJ

JJ....finally I have to agree with you!!! (except the part about it's
OK to do a low pass if you talk on the radio)....

Any pilot who does a low pass increases he chances of killing himself
(and possibly somebody else) by a huge factor....

There is no reason for this behavior......The onus for safety falls on
the PIC.....you can have all the safety comittees and investigations
and rules you want.....if pilots continue to do dumb things...they
will continue to have mishaps...

BTW can anybody tell me of any books which teach the low pass
manuever? Is this maneuver in the PTS? Is this maneuver in the
Curriculum used by any flight instructor, anywhere??? No....because
it is a stupid thing to do!!!

Cookie

On Aug 21, 10:54*am, Ramy wrote:
On Aug 21, 6:23*am, BobW wrote:





On 8/20/2011 7:02 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:

Frank Whiteley;781006 Wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:-
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!-

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y * * * *Make/Model: EXP * * * Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB
BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 * * Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident * Highest Injury: Fatal * * Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE * State: ID * Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA * * *Total Fatal: * 1
# Crew: * 1 * * Fat: * 1 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Pass: * 0 * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Grnd: * * * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown * * *Phase: Unknown * * *Operation: OTHER

FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID *(NM11) * * * * * * * * * * Entry date: 08/19/2011

Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have
much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Nor - I've little doubt - do most interested readers of the NTSB database. My
working conclusion is, historically the vast majority of NTSB glider
investigations state the obvious, while lacking any ability to place the
obvious into any sensible context. Donning my Great Karnak hat, this
fatality's Probable Cause will likely read: Failure to maintain airspeed and
control for unknown reasons.

And at that, my supposition may well err on the wide of 'too much
context'...time will tell.

However, savvy NTSB-database-reading glider pilots can still make their own
inferential, context-based conclusions from NTSB data. In fact, they *should*
do so, if they're interested in maximizing their chances of not eventually
becoming a read-about incident or accident in the database.

Bob W.

Precisely, and this is why we should encourage speculation rather than
'wait for the NTSB report'.
And I'll start by saying that from a second hand report this was a
spin of the top of a (not so) high speed pass.
I for one will think twice before attempting a high speed low pass
again especially if i am not 100% sure I'll be able to build enough
speed.
This had been another terrible year for glider accidents and it is
tragic to loose so many but we should all try to learn as much as
possible from every accident to increase our safety.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am not sure what happened in this incident....but I have heard of
MANY stall spins from high speed low pass followed by sharp pull
up......I also saw a video of wing flutter during a too fast fast
pass, (and wing depart.)...I have also heard of coutless airplane
accidents attributed to "buzzing"....

The lesson is simple.......Learn from the mistakes of others...you can
greatly increase your odds of not killing yourself if you don't do any
of the above!!

Cookie