Low pass

Kirk, I think Cookie was being rather tongue-in-cheek... reference his
line: "Especially if you don't mind the occasional fatality..........
"

One of my club's members, Manfred Radius, is an airshow aerobatic
glider pilot who ends his show with an inverted pass to cut a ribbon
with his V-tail (Salto).
http://www.radiusairshows.com/

On Aug 25, 4:53*pm, jsbrake wrote:
Kirk, I think Cookie was being rather tongue-in-cheek... reference his
line: "Especially if you don't mind the occasional fatality..........
"

One of my club's members, Manfred Radius, is an airshow aerobatic
glider pilot who ends his show with an inverted pass to cut a ribbon
with his V-tail (Salto).http://www.radiusairshows.com/

"tongue-in-cheek" and "fatality" don't usually go together.

Sarcasm, on the other hand...

Personally, I think Cookie is just being a jerk, with a hard-on about
"low passes", "contest finishes", whatever you want to call them.

If he really put a little thought into it, he would realize that the
real problem with our apalling safety record is that so many glider
pilots in the US are poorly trained, lack currency, or do not take the
time to improve their skills.

And our gliding culture has split us into groups that regard the
others with disdain; Twirlybirds vs glassholes, local fun flyers vs
fanatical racers, high-tech vs old school simple.

Instead of enjoying the range of adventures that soaring allows, and
learning (and respecting) what other glider pilots do, instead we
accuse them, without basis usually, of "unsafe activities" if they
don't fit our definition of a glider pilot.

Final comment on low passes, then I'll shut up: How many documented
accidents, in the US, can be directly blamed on low passes in recent
years (say, since the end of their use in contest finishes)? OTOH,
how many due to botched PTTs, taking off with spoilers open, midairs,
landouts, stall spins on final, botched final glides,etc?

Statistically, it's probably safer to finish a flight with a low pass
than a conventional pattern!

Kirk
66

Final comment on low passes, then I'll shut up: *How many documented
accidents, in the US, can be directly blamed on low passes in recent
years (say, since the end of their use in contest finishes)? *OTOH,
how many due to botched PTTs, taking off with spoilers open, midairs,
landouts, stall spins on final, botched final glides,etc?

Well, quite a few, actually. Here is the last time I put together the
numbers (see slide 5)

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...est_safety.ppt

Uvalde and wurstboro in 2001 were the most recent, both fatal, both
following a low pass.

The much larger danger has been "low energy at the finish" which is
easy to confuse with "screwing up a high speed low pass." The accident
reports are littered with gliders 1-2 miles from the finish line that
didn't quite make it. The excellent UK accident reports on Sailplane
and Gliding continue with a few of these every year. The accident
reports (see above) are also full of pilots arriving at 50 feet and 50
knots with few ideas and then crashing on the airport.

The accident that started all this sounds now less like "show off low
pass" and more like one of these, "very low energy pattern." Reports
were a very low slow downwind fololwed by stall spin on base and
final. Perhaps the discussion should move to "you don't have to do a
big square pattern every time."

John Cochrane

On Aug 26, 10:47*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
Final comment on low passes, then I'll shut up: *How many documented
accidents, in the US, can be directly blamed on low passes in recent
years (say, since the end of their use in contest finishes)? *OTOH,
how many due to botched PTTs, taking off with spoilers open, midairs,
landouts, stall spins on final, botched final glides,etc?

Well, quite a few, actually. Here is the last time I put together the
numbers (see slide 5)

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...pts/contest_sa...

Uvalde and wurstboro in 2001 were the most recent, both fatal, both
following a low pass.

The much larger danger has been "low energy at the finish" which is
easy to confuse with "screwing up a high speed low pass." The accident
reports are littered with gliders 1-2 miles from the finish line that
didn't quite make it. The excellent UK accident reports on Sailplane
and Gliding continue with a few of these every year. The accident
reports (see above) are also full of pilots arriving at 50 feet and 50
knots with few ideas and then crashing on the airport.

The accident that started all this sounds now less like "show off low
pass" and more like one of these, "very low energy pattern." Reports
were a very low slow downwind fololwed by stall spin on base and
final. Perhaps the discussion should move to "you don't have to do a
big square pattern every time."

John Cochrane

Went through your power point, well thought out. Lots of good lessons
to learn.

gary kemp

On 8/26/2011 11:47 AM, John Cochrane wrote:

Final comment on low passes, then I'll shut up: How many documented
accidents, in the US, can be directly blamed on low passes in recent
years (say, since the end of their use in contest finishes)? OTOH,
how many due to botched PTTs, taking off with spoilers open, midairs,
landouts, stall spins on final, botched final glides,etc?

Well, quite a few, actually. Here is the last time I put together the
numbers (see slide 5)

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...est_safety.ppt

Uvalde and Wurtsboro in 2001 were the most recent, both fatal, both
following a low pass.

The much larger danger has been "low energy at the finish" which is
easy to confuse with "screwing up a high speed low pass." The accident
reports are littered with gliders 1-2 miles from the finish line that
didn't quite make it. The excellent UK accident reports on Sailplane
and Gliding continue with a few of these every year. The accident
reports (see above) are also full of pilots arriving at 50 feet and 50
knots with few ideas and then crashing on the airport.

Great Stuff, John..even withOUT the benefit of presentational commentary.
Thanks for posting the link!

Working strictly from memory, most of the crunches John mentions were noted in
some way or other in "Soaring" magazine down the years. Heckuva resource for
readers willing to pay attention to the details...


The accident that started all this sounds now less like "show off low
pass" and more like one of these, "very low energy pattern." Reports
were a very low slow downwind followed by stall spin on base and
final. Perhaps the discussion should move to "you don't have to do a
big square pattern every time."

Here's a start...

http://www.ssa.org/magazine/archive/...nth=11&page=36

Link may not work for non-SSA members.

Regards,
Bob W.

John - While I agree with many of your points...
BOTH of the accidents you mentioned above we
- outside of competition
- by non competition pilots
- by pilots "emulating the big guys"
Points to training, not banning passes...
Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Not a new problem. Discussed in my 1987 article:
http://www.nadler.com/public/Nadler_...g_May_1987.pdf

Originally Posted by Dave Nadler

John - While I agree with many of your points...
BOTH of the accidents you mentioned above we
- outside of competition
- by non competition pilots
- by pilots "emulating the big guys"
Points to training, not banning passes...
Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Not a new problem. Discussed in my 1987 article:
http://www.nadler.com/public/Nadler_...g_May_1987.pdf

GREAT article. Considering it was written 24 years ago it appears there has not been much accomplished relative to training for the high speed low pass. The more I read the more I understand how really complicated this sport can be and how little I know. The books you mentioned should be part of every pilots glider library.

Walt

On 8/27/2011 5:22 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
John - While I agree with many of your points...
BOTH of the accidents you mentioned above we
- outside of competition
- by non competition pilots
- by pilots "emulating the big guys"
Points to training, not banning passes...
Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Not a new problem. Discussed in my 1987 article:
http://www.nadler.com/public/Nadler_...g_May_1987.pdf

Great article Dave. Should be required reading at all cross country
camps and suggested reading at Regionals.

MG

On 8/28/2011 12:38 PM, Mike I Green wrote:


On 8/27/2011 5:22 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
John - While I agree with many of your points...
BOTH of the accidents you mentioned above we
- outside of competition
- by non competition pilots
- by pilots "emulating the big guys"
Points to training, not banning passes...
Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Not a new problem. Discussed in my 1987 article:
http://www.nadler.com/public/Nadler_...g_May_1987.pdf

Great article Dave. Should be required reading at all cross country
camps and suggested reading at Regionals.

MG

On Aug 27, 7:22*pm, Dave Nadler wrote:
John - While I agree with many of your points...
BOTH of the accidents you mentioned above we
- outside of competition
- by non competition pilots
- by pilots "emulating the big guys"
Points to training, not banning passes...
Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Not a new problem. Discussed in my 1987 article:http://www.nadler.com/public/Nadler_...g_May_1987.pdf

Your article is still a classic.

Nobody's banning anything here. Just talking about a maneuver, where
the danger points are (mostly the turn after the pass), and responding
to a previous post that wanted to know whether there have been
documented crashes.

John Cochrane