Two die in Glider mid-air

A PowerFlarm might have prevented this accident. I am getting one.

Mike Green

On 9/6/2011 7:40 PM, Brad wrote:
On Sep 6, 3:47 pm, Walt ConnellyWalt.Connelly.
wrote:
There appears to be some disagreement with the comments that this
collision occurred in a thermal. Found the following comments online
regarding this accident.

From Fun Junkie:

This was a tragic ACCIDENT, nothing more. Having reviewed the gps logs
of each gliders flight path and the video of the collision, there are
two things that need to be cleared up.

First, neither glider was in a thermal so the discussions about that are
pointless.

Second, neither glider was "show boating" or doing anything unsafe at
the time of the collision, or prior to it.

They were simply flying in an area they knew very well and have flown
hundreds of times before. On this particular flight they happened to be
flying in the same geographical area but approaching from opposite
directions. Both gliders were in essentially level flight and at the
same altitude. For whatever reason... they simply did not see each other
in sufficient time to avoid a collision. Gliders approaching each other
at the same altitude are very difficult to see and close on each other
very quickly. As a friend and fellow pilot of both Keith and Ray, I will
miss them dearly and offer my sincerest condolences to their families
and friends. This was simply a very tragic accident between two pilots
who took flying safety very seriously.

End of comments

Amazing how often the facts of the case take a long time to become
clear. The idea that they were not in a thermal makes more sense to
me.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

quite frankly this is what really scares the **** out of me, and
pardon my french...................but I can't tell you how many times
I've lost track of my flying buddies only to have them appear where I
did not expect them. and this is with constant radio contact and
position reports.

anyone that tells you a proper scan will always save the day is
dreaming.................it will work until the day it doesn't and
then dog help us.

Brad

On Sep 6, 8:10*pm, Mike I Green wrote:
A PowerFlarm might have prevented this accident. *I am getting one.

Mike Green

On 9/6/2011 7:40 PM, Brad wrote:







On Sep 6, 3:47 pm, Walt ConnellyWalt.Connelly.
*wrote:
There appears to be some disagreement with the comments that this
collision occurred in a thermal. *Found the following comments online
regarding this accident.

*From Fun Junkie:

This was a tragic ACCIDENT, nothing more. Having reviewed the gps logs
of each gliders flight path and the video of the collision, there are
two things that need to be cleared up.

First, neither glider was in a thermal so the discussions about that are
pointless.

Second, neither glider was "show boating" or doing anything unsafe at
the time of the collision, or prior to it.

They were simply flying in an area they knew very well and have flown
hundreds of times before. On this particular flight they happened to be
flying in the same geographical area but approaching from opposite
directions. Both gliders were in essentially level flight and at the
same altitude. For whatever reason... they simply did not see each other
in sufficient time to avoid a collision. Gliders approaching each other
at the same altitude are very difficult to see and close on each other
very quickly. As a friend and fellow pilot of both Keith and Ray, I will
miss them dearly and offer my sincerest condolences to their families
and friends. This was simply a very tragic accident between two pilots
who took flying safety very seriously.

End of comments

Amazing how often the facts of the case take a long time to become
clear. *The idea that they were not in a thermal makes more sense to
me.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

quite frankly this is what really scares the **** out of me, and
pardon my french...................but I can't tell you how many times
I've lost track of my flying buddies only to have them appear where I
did not expect them. and this is with constant radio contact and
position reports.

anyone that tells you a proper scan will always save the day is
dreaming.................it will work until the day it doesn't and
then dog help us.

Brad

As I have reported here before, I had a close head-on with a fellow
club member a couple of years ago. We were flying in opposite
directions along a cloudstreet and were in radio contact. I suddenly
saw a flash of orange ahead and slightly to my right, so I
instinctively climbed and banked left. My colleague passed not fifty
feet under my right wing and he never even saw me. One of the few
times that anti-collision markings helped (my glider has none). A
review of our GPS traces showed us closing at a speed of over 200 mph
(300 feet per second) and the time between seeing a head-on glider and
impact was barely sufficient to react.

Electronic countermeasures are the only solution.

Mike

Originally Posted by Mike the Strike

On Sep 6, 8:10*pm, Mike I Green wrote:[color=blue][i]
A PowerFlarm might have prevented this accident. *I am getting one.

Mike Green

As I have reported here before, I had a close head-on with a fellow
club member a couple of years ago. We were flying in opposite
directions along a cloudstreet and were in radio contact. I suddenly
saw a flash of orange ahead and slightly to my right, so I
instinctively climbed and banked left. My colleague passed not fifty
feet under my right wing and he never even saw me. One of the few
times that anti-collision markings helped (my glider has none). A
review of our GPS traces showed us closing at a speed of over 200 mph
(300 feet per second) and the time between seeing a head-on glider and
impact was barely sufficient to react.

Electronic countermeasures are the only solution.

Mike

Report on CBC radio this morning indicated that the Canadian Rockies Soaring Club had just ordered FLARM for all their gliders prior to the accident.... Unforunatley not installed in time. Not sure if the gliders involved were club ships. I met Keith Watson a few weeks ago when he dropped by the club I fly with and we talked for quite some time while I was working on my LS-3. Nice guy and I was sadened to hear about the accident.

Mid airs have always been my biggest source of fear in soaring. I get upset with myself everytime I notice a Cessna after it has already passed me! I watched a Challenger pass by once at the same altitude and thought to myself that I would have 0 chance avoiding a head on with a jet. I`m borderline obsessive with keeping track of every other glider in the air and I`m still surprised how many times I loose people and find them again much closer than expected.

Matt

I have a transponder, PCAS and FLARM on order. Last spring I added a
BRS, its amazing how much the BRS makes me feel secure. They have been
successfully deployed as low as 260 feet.
Cheers,
JJ
Oh, yeah, I also have a radio............and I use it when running
under a cloud street as in "JJ just turned Hayfork and is southbound
at16".

And, speaking of jets...

Years ago, while climbing above the Black Forest Glider Port at about 11,000
MSL (4,000 AGL), I noticed a tiny spot on the horizon to the south. On the
next turn, I saw the B-757 maneuvering to avoid a collision with me! I was
thankful that those guys had their heads outside the cockpit and saw me
because I had no chance to avoid a collision.

I always wondered why the FAA routed airliners traveling between Colorado
Springs (COS) and Denver (DEN) directly over our small airpark at 11,000'
MSL.

And to bore everyone further - back in the late 70s, and before knowing
anything about gliders, I was flight engineer on a B-727 on a leg between
DEN (the old Stapleton airport) and COS. Our clearance took us directly
down the ramparts of the Front Range and the captain said, "Let's see how
fast this baby will go!". We were cruising at 350 KIAS at 11,000 MSL right
over prime glider territory! I don't recall the season and I've always
wondered if there were any gliders there at the time...


"Matt RX" wrote in message
...[color=blue][i]

Mike the Strike;782551 Wrote:
On Sep 6, 8:10*pm, Mike I Green
wrote:
A PowerFlarm might have prevented this accident. *I am getting one.

Mike Green

As I have reported here before, I had a close head-on with a fellow
club member a couple of years ago. We were flying in opposite
directions along a cloudstreet and were in radio contact. I suddenly
saw a flash of orange ahead and slightly to my right, so I
instinctively climbed and banked left. My colleague passed not fifty
feet under my right wing and he never even saw me. One of the few
times that anti-collision markings helped (my glider has none). A
review of our GPS traces showed us closing at a speed of over 200 mph
(300 feet per second) and the time between seeing a head-on glider and
impact was barely sufficient to react.

Electronic countermeasures are the only solution.

Mike

Report on CBC radio this morning indicated that the Canadian Rockies
Soaring Club had just ordered FLARM for all their gliders prior to the
accident.... Unforunatley not installed in time. Not sure if the gliders
involved were club ships. I met Keith Watson a few weeks ago when he
dropped by the club I fly with and we talked for quite some time while I
was working on my LS-3. Nice guy and I was sadened to hear about the
accident.

Mid airs have always been my biggest source of fear in soaring. I get
upset with myself everytime I notice a Cessna after it has already
passed me! I watched a Challenger pass by once at the same altitude and
thought to myself that I would have 0 chance avoiding a head on with a
jet. I`m borderline obsessive with keeping track of every other glider
in the air and I`m still surprised how many times I loose people and
find them again much closer than expected.

Matt




--
Matt RX

On Sep 8, 8:01*am, "Dan Marotta" wrote:[color=blue][i]
And, speaking of jets...

Years ago, while climbing above the Black Forest Glider Port at about 11,000
MSL (4,000 AGL), I noticed a tiny spot on the horizon to the south. *On the
next turn, I saw the B-757 maneuvering to avoid a collision with me! *I was
thankful that those guys had their heads outside the cockpit and saw me
because I had no chance to avoid a collision.

I always wondered why the FAA routed airliners traveling between Colorado
Springs (COS) and Denver (DEN) directly over our small airpark at 11,000'
MSL.

And to bore everyone further - back in the late 70s, and before knowing
anything about gliders, I was flight engineer on a B-727 on a leg between
DEN (the old Stapleton airport) and COS. *Our clearance took us directly
down the ramparts of the Front Range and the captain said, "Let's see how
fast this baby will go!". *We were cruising at 350 KIAS at 11,000 MSL right
over prime glider territory! *I don't recall the season and I've always
wondered if there were any gliders there at the time...

"Matt RX" wrote in message

...





Mike the Strike;782551 Wrote:
On Sep 6, 8:10*pm, Mike I Green
wrote:
A PowerFlarm might have prevented this accident. *I am getting one.

Mike Green

As I have reported here before, I had a close head-on with a fellow
club member a couple of years ago. *We were flying in opposite
directions along a cloudstreet and were in radio contact. *I suddenly
saw a flash of orange ahead and slightly to my right, so I
instinctively climbed and banked left. *My colleague passed not fifty
feet under my right wing and he never even saw me. *One of the few
times that anti-collision markings helped (my glider has none). *A
review of our GPS traces showed us closing at a speed of over 200 mph
(300 feet per second) and the time between seeing a head-on glider and
impact was barely sufficient to react.

Electronic countermeasures are the only solution.

Mike

Report on CBC radio this morning indicated that the Canadian Rockies
Soaring Club had just ordered FLARM for all their gliders prior to the
accident.... Unforunatley not installed in time. Not sure if the gliders
involved were club ships. I met Keith Watson a few weeks ago when he
dropped by the club I fly with and we talked for quite some time while I
was working on my LS-3. Nice guy and I was sadened to hear about the
accident.

Mid airs have always been my biggest source of fear in soaring. I get
upset with myself everytime I notice a Cessna after it has already
passed me! I watched a Challenger pass by once at the same altitude and
thought to myself that I would have 0 chance avoiding a head on with a
jet. I`m borderline obsessive with keeping track of every other glider
in the air and I`m still surprised how many times I loose people and
find them again much closer than expected.

Matt

--
Matt RX- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dan, I assume you were not flying with a transponder at that time, but
flying with one now. Since I started flying with transponders I never
saw an airliner too close, and I am flying in some of the most busy
airspaces in the US (Bay Area and Reno).
But transponder wouldn't have saved those folks. Flarm could. How
tragic.

Ramy

Yes, I'm flying with a transponder now and I see a lot of arriving and
departing traffic to ABQ. As you noted, they don't seem too close so I
guess it's working!


"Ramy" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 8:01 am, "Dan Marotta" wrote:[color=blue][i]
And, speaking of jets...

Years ago, while climbing above the Black Forest Glider Port at about
11,000
MSL (4,000 AGL), I noticed a tiny spot on the horizon to the south. On the
next turn, I saw the B-757 maneuvering to avoid a collision with me! I was
thankful that those guys had their heads outside the cockpit and saw me
because I had no chance to avoid a collision.

I always wondered why the FAA routed airliners traveling between Colorado
Springs (COS) and Denver (DEN) directly over our small airpark at 11,000'
MSL.

And to bore everyone further - back in the late 70s, and before knowing
anything about gliders, I was flight engineer on a B-727 on a leg between
DEN (the old Stapleton airport) and COS. Our clearance took us directly
down the ramparts of the Front Range and the captain said, "Let's see how
fast this baby will go!". We were cruising at 350 KIAS at 11,000 MSL right
over prime glider territory! I don't recall the season and I've always
wondered if there were any gliders there at the time...

"Matt RX" wrote in message

...





Mike the Strike;782551 Wrote:
On Sep 6, 8:10*pm, Mike I Green
wrote:
A PowerFlarm might have prevented this accident. *I am getting one.

Mike Green

As I have reported here before, I had a close head-on with a fellow
club member a couple of years ago. We were flying in opposite
directions along a cloudstreet and were in radio contact. I suddenly
saw a flash of orange ahead and slightly to my right, so I
instinctively climbed and banked left. My colleague passed not fifty
feet under my right wing and he never even saw me. One of the few
times that anti-collision markings helped (my glider has none). A
review of our GPS traces showed us closing at a speed of over 200 mph
(300 feet per second) and the time between seeing a head-on glider and
impact was barely sufficient to react.

Electronic countermeasures are the only solution.

Mike

Report on CBC radio this morning indicated that the Canadian Rockies
Soaring Club had just ordered FLARM for all their gliders prior to the
accident.... Unforunatley not installed in time. Not sure if the gliders
involved were club ships. I met Keith Watson a few weeks ago when he
dropped by the club I fly with and we talked for quite some time while I
was working on my LS-3. Nice guy and I was sadened to hear about the
accident.

Mid airs have always been my biggest source of fear in soaring. I get
upset with myself everytime I notice a Cessna after it has already
passed me! I watched a Challenger pass by once at the same altitude and
thought to myself that I would have 0 chance avoiding a head on with a
jet. I`m borderline obsessive with keeping track of every other glider
in the air and I`m still surprised how many times I loose people and
find them again much closer than expected.

Matt

--
Matt RX- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dan, I assume you were not flying with a transponder at that time, but
flying with one now. Since I started flying with transponders I never
saw an airliner too close, and I am flying in some of the most busy
airspaces in the US (Bay Area and Reno).
But transponder wouldn't have saved those folks. Flarm could. How
tragic.

Ramy

Transponders are not a magic shield.

I fly with a Mode S transponder in the busy Philadelphia / New York
airspace. I often see airliners diverting course to go around me
(particularly commuters), but then there was the Southwest 737 that
flew 300 feet directly over me. I was thermalling at 5700, he was
straight and level at 6000. Gliders in this area have a discrete
transponder code, and we know from conversations with ATC that they're
keeping track of us specifically as glider traffic. So, I know for
certain that (1) the Southwest pilot was aware of me (long before I
was aware of him), and (2) he was also aware that I was a glider.

I'm not standing on principle here, if I'd seen him sooner I would
have quit thermalling and flown 90 degrees to his track while losing
altitude (quickly). But it was a hazy day, I was thermalling, he was
doing 250 kts, and I just flat didn't see him until he was about a
mile away.

Moral - keep a good lookout, amd remember that stuff can happen in
spite of a transponder...

-John

On Sep 8, 1:56 pm, Ramy wrote:
Since I started flying with transponders I never
saw an airliner too close, and I am flying in some of the most busy
airspaces in the US (Bay Area and Reno).

On Sep 9, 8:54*am, jcarlyle wrote:
Transponders are not a magic shield.

I fly with a Mode S transponder in the busy Philadelphia / New York
airspace. I often see airliners diverting course to go around me
(particularly commuters), but then there was the Southwest 737 that
flew 300 feet directly over me. I was thermalling at 5700, he was
straight and level at 6000. Gliders in this area have a discrete
transponder code, and we know from conversations with ATC that they're
keeping track of us specifically as glider traffic. So, I know for
certain that (1) the Southwest pilot was aware of me (long before I
was aware of him), and (2) he was also aware that I was a glider.

I'm not standing on principle here, if I'd seen him sooner I would
have quit thermalling and flown 90 degrees to his track while losing
altitude (quickly). But it was a hazy day, I was thermalling, he was
doing 250 kts, and I just flat didn't see him until he was about a
mile away.

Moral - keep a good lookout, amd remember that stuff can happen in
spite of a transponder...

-John

On Sep 8, 1:56 pm, Ramy wrote:







Since I started flying with transponders I never
saw an airliner too close, and I am flying in some of the most busy
airspaces in the US (Bay Area and Reno).

out here in Boeing country it's not uncommon to see test flights
returning right thru the same airspace we fly gliders. it's quite a
sight to have then drop out of the clouds at 3000' just south of KAWO.
it's also quite a sight to see the big dreamlifter do the same
thing................I've taken a few pics of this big bird and had it
fill the frame.

Brad

jcarlyle wrote:
Transponders are not a magic shield.

I fly with a Mode S transponder in the busy Philadelphia / New York
airspace. I often see airliners diverting course to go around me
(particularly commuters), but then there was the Southwest 737 that
flew 300 feet directly over me. I was thermalling at 5700, he was
straight and level at 6000. Gliders in this area have a discrete
transponder code, and we know from conversations with ATC that they're
keeping track of us specifically as glider traffic. So, I know for
certain that (1) the Southwest pilot was aware of me (long before I
was aware of him), and (2) he was also aware that I was a glider.

I'm not standing on principle here, if I'd seen him sooner I would
have quit thermalling and flown 90 degrees to his track while losing
altitude (quickly). But it was a hazy day, I was thermalling, he was
doing 250 kts, and I just flat didn't see him until he was about a
mile away.

Moral - keep a good lookout, amd remember that stuff can happen in
spite of a transponder...

-John

Something is a little strange here as this seems well within the
altitude difference window that should have generated an RA. Which is a
big deal to the 737 crew both from the immediate required response to
the RA and subsequent reporting/paperwork.

Darryl